Table training(agitation/bitework) - Page 1

Questions for those whom have never used a table for bite work and or to better understand the work being done from both the handlers,dogs,and helpers stand point.


how exactly can you slow a dog down and its benefits. how does it actually help calm the dog in the grip? how can it help them deal with the pressure if working in defense?
what are you doing and looking for from this tool to obtain balance? some of the physiological differences both in dog and decoy you look for?etc.... but please put the other side(helpers) to this equation in these questions please.

just a rough break down of maybe say 3 classifications of dogs. as we all know every dog is different. but say a prey dog to bring up fight and defense. training a dog mostly defense and less prey. and dogs like keiths to take handler out and slow/calm the dog allowing it to be successful. 

good questions....having never seen or done it i can't help. would look forward to seeing responses by those that have. would also like to know the role of the height of the table and how that effects the dog's mindset and if the dog knowing it has no escape option what drive is the dog working in then. confused as to if a dog has the genetics/balls to move forward in aggression under pressure and the drives to fight and not split then then blocking the escape would be unnecessary would it not.

just a rough break down of maybe say 3 classifications of dogs. as we all know every dog is different. but say a prey dog to bring up fight and defense. training a dog mostly defense and less prey. and dogs like keiths to take handler out and slow/calm the dog allowing it to be successful. 

First off, "Hired Dog" gives an excellent explanation of Table training.  

High prey drive dogs are taught to focus on the man and rewarded for bringing "civil" aggression and defense to the decoy.  In the way that I do Table training it is like the equivalent of a boxing coach/sparring partner and a boxer.  The decoy brings out the desired response in the dog and then comes back and praises the dog.   For a 'High prey" which can often be fixated on equipment, we remove the equipment and cause the dog to focus on the decoy.  The first sign of aggression is rewarded and we build on that.  

For dogs that are high defense and low prey, I may work the dog in prey on the table.  The table we have for the Police K-9's is rather large, almost 8' x 8' and we have a large indoor room.  I can move completely around the table and easily put dogs into prey.  We use the table for many things including "turning on" and "turning the dog off."  For defensive dogs we  calm, praise and reward the dog when in control.  If the dog is a high defense dog we will work in prey and reward with more bites, work on grip and the decoy will praise and pet the dog after the out.  The dog learns when aggression is appropriate and when aggression is not allowed.  The confidence in the dog is built and nerve strength is focused on.  

For dog's with handler conflict and handler induced issues the handler is taken out of the equation.  I read the dog and see how balanced it is.  Often dogs with handler conflict have issues with outing.  The table is a perfect place to work on outs, it is also a perfect place to work on grips and bite development.  For the out, I will generally work with two sleeves and immediately reward the dog for an out with another bite.  The handler stays back and comes up and praises the dpg when told.  There is no yelling, no hard compulsion it is completely calm and controlled.  The dog gets ONE clear out command from the handler and I manipulate every thing else getting a quick out.  The handler then calmly praises.  

Working as a "coach/sparring partner" often has me agitating a dog and getting a serioulsy aggressive response.  I will go out of sight and change my demeanor and come back and praise and pet the dog myself.  This is not something that should be done by novices or people that are afraid of being "tagged" or bitten by tough dogs.  I have been nailed a few times doing this. Once the bleeding stops the training continues.  

The table is a way to build confidence, strength, develop grips, work on outs and issues that a dog might have.  It's not about whipping a dog into a frenzy.  There is measured pressure applied to the dog and you MUST know when and how to release that pressure.  This is critical.  A dog can and should be calmed on the table and this is a huge benefit of the table.  



 

vk4gsd,
I worked primarily very strong dogs on the table, seasoned and proven Police dogs and some very high end, spec op Military dogs.  Strong dogs become stronger and more in control and contained.  Weaker dogs learn that appropriate aggression is a way to deal with an over whelming threat and the correct response drives the decoy away and release the pressure.  When I work dogs on the table they must convince me that they will absolutely bite me with out equipment and be very serious in their intentions.  The dogs are built up to this point very carefully.  
 
Every dog that I have worked on the table comes right back in after the first session and jumps up on the table ready to work the second time.  You have to realize that this training is designed to build the dog and enhance the dog.  The dog is constantly winning, starting with correct small responses and building on that.  The dog learns that the correct response is very heavily praised and rewarded.  Dogs love to win, especially against a very strong and intimidating adversary.  When they win over and over and always end on a positive note after handling increased pressure they want more.  The dogs always come back more eager to work than before,  This is a basic concept with any training.  

very good posts. can we elaborate on the decoy/helpers approach to the table? (for prey and defense)

the physiological signs that the dog is in prey/defense on the table? how to read the dog in different drive throughout agitation and in grip? and how to read thresholds?(dog is pushed to max of desired drive and rewarded to build)









 

vk, You need to understand first and formost, that the table is 
NOT the place for a dog that needs to 'forced' to bite. There is no
place for a dog like that on any field. They either have to have the
heart or they should not be worked in bitework period. The table 
should never be used to 'force' a dog into biting. If you need to do
that, you need to simply get a dog more suited for the work you 
want to do.

Now, don't mistake this for a dog that maybe was taught bite inhibition,
example would be a 3-5 year old dog that was raised as a 'pet' and now
the owner wants to get into a bite sport.Those types of dogs generally
benefit from a situation where the handler (source of conflict) is taken out
of the picture and the dog has his natural drives tapped into. Usually it
takes a session or two for the dog to 'get it', but once the dog understands
that it is indeed 'ok' to show aggression etc, well, the gates are opened and
the handler can then start becoming part of the 'team' again. 

Samael, one of the biggest indicators to the helper is the body language
of the dog, head up, tail up and wagging even, or, a more defensive posture.
The bark will also tell you, whether the dog wants to play, kill you, or is slightly
unsure and is hoping you will read his threat and retreat. So much of this is so
hard to break down into black and white words, it must really be seen in person
to fully understand it. Not even video can catch all the subtle little cues a dog or 
helper will give one another, let alone factoring the handler into the picture 

 

Great explanations and very clear, slam and dogz.

"Table Training" is a Tool...A Tool is used to help the dog get what they need and/or don't have...Such as Focus...Adds another form of Stress (which dogs need in small doses)...

The height of the table (to me) is what is good for the helper...So that the dog is at a level that is easy to get a bite...The height is also good to isolate the dog...

"Table Training" ISN'T just for a young dog...It's a Tool that can and should be used at all levels of training...So many people think that once you "train" your dog that you never go back and repeat things that you did to get your dog to the point they're at now...This is so far from the truth...You need (from time to time) take a few steps back and refresh your dog at what they already know...or have already experienced...

Something people forget about dog training is that dogs don't just learn at the moment of "training"...Dogs learn from thinking about what they've experienced...Dogs need "down time"...When dogs have "down time" they think about what they've done and LEARN...So...our dogs really do need time to Rest and to absorb what they've done...It's a very important part of training....

In Working Dogs...It's very important to give our dogs new experiences...New experiences equal STRESS...Stress is good if you give it in small doses and give them something to learn at the same time...

When I first started training dogs I was told by an experienced trainer to keep a journal of what I do...Obedience...Tracking...and...Protection...For a couple years I kept a journal...I mean in tracking I kept things like what the weather was like...the ground surface was like and so on...To this day...Every once in awhile (like every 5 years or so) I find the journals and re-read them...I find this to be very interesting...Now I was only keeping the journal on 1 dog...It really helped...Now I can work a number of dogs and can keep it straight what's done on each dog...

There are a few experienced trainers on this site...that are willing to help others...People need to listen and learn from these people...Not everyone is willing to help...Main reason is People...People DON'T listen...So why use your breathe...

All an experienced trainer is...Someone that has multiple ways of teaching the same things that you already know...Remember you don't have to use all the techniques all the time...You just store them for a time that you need to pull something out of the bag of knowledge for a special problem...

The best way to learn something is to get off your butt and DO IT! TRY IT! ...and LEARN...Have FUN...!

~Bob~
 

thanks for the explanations and information.

workingdogz its hard anywhere even in person to teach sometimes. so im not letting you of the hook that easy LMAO. but i understand.

so "slam" - you said somewhere your dept had a big 8' foot table. 

well there are different designs, as you see some that look like a 3 sided box. some the are just a open circle with swindle in the middle.

what are these different table designs used for?
 

Here is a very good thread on table training with some very good posts by several people.  

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=680300-table-training-theory-and-application