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by SitasMom on 22 November 2012 - 08:11
by darylehret on 22 November 2012 - 19:11
The often-heard call for a 45-degree shoulder layback plus another supposed 45-degree angle to the “line” of the upper arm, equaling a 90-degree shoulder angle, is inaccurate and misleading. If lines are drawn on a radiograph or a sketch, along the scapular spine and down the center of the humerus as they usually are, a 90-degree angle in the real, live dog standing there before you will never be realized. Since the time I started challenging this notion, there have been noted authorities who have corroborated my claims with independent research, but it will be a long time before the old books are all revised and longer still before writers do their own investigative work instead of copying sketches from each other.
http://www.fredlanting.org/2008/10/front-and-rear-angulation-in-the-working-dog-2/
Honestly, it the 90 degree angle thing didn't have such aesthetic and mathematically simplistic appeal, I'd have to wonder who made up so much BS about what's conformationally "ideal".
by Preston on 22 November 2012 - 21:11
As far as the angle of the scapula to the upper arm, a friend of mine and I used to measure this many years ago with protractors in top moving GSDs. We found that 105 degrees was the norm. But it depends how one measures and use of 45 degrees from the vertical for both bones is close enough. No need to split hairs here. In general terms SitasMom hits the mark and provides very important and useful conformation information.
The diagrams SitasMom provides are very important because they clearly illustrate the main faults in GSDs which are often most visible at 4 and 8 weeks in young puppies (sometimes at 12 and 16 weeks too). After that many GSDs with good conformation go through various growth and development stages which are not end points. I have seen GSDs which at 8 weeks were incredibly well conformed and the same dogs up in the rear and a mess at 8-9 months old, only to return to great conformation at 1.5 years old or so.
American Shepherds have some distinctly poor traits in conformation which are readily visible even in many top AKC Champions and Select dogs): small heads, far too long in the back and loin, steep croups, long lower thighs (sickle hocked), soft temperament, scapula and upper arm too steep and forward placed and far too little prosturnum of chest.
The SV German Shepherds also have some serious issues in many of their top V and VA dogs such as roach backs, steep croups, faulty proportions and too much hip dysplasia and elbow issues. The SV SL dogs in general have by far much better conformation and are much closer to the FCI/SV standard as far as physical conformation. The SV WL GSDS are in general much closer to the FCI/SV standard for working temperament as a whole but only a few have great physical conformation. But there are always exceptions both ways.
by Hundmutter on 23 November 2012 - 09:11
on the board fairly recently. The precise degree of that angle has been a
point of contention in the breed as long as I have been alive; maybe longer.
As Preston said, that point aside, Sita'smom is doing a very useful and
timely thing, posting these diagrams.
by darylehret on 23 November 2012 - 15:11
by Hundmutter on 23 November 2012 - 17:11
as I find doing links so difficult (I know its me not the process,
I just get tied in knots trying to do things in the right order) I
didn't point people at either Sitasmoms posts or the (pre -
redesign) 2-hander of Ibrahim's. Apologies. One day I will
get it mastered, I promise.
I agree, I'd like to see where the diagrams came from.
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