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by clc29 on 12 August 2011 - 15:08
Hello Everyone,
Cisco has been doing puppy runaways for a couple of months now and I think he's ready for the next phase of Airscent training.
My goal for him is to be an Airscent dog with a, Recall/Re-find, handler bark alert.
Up until now (per the lead trainers advice) Cisco has been staying with the "subject" as he/she walks back to me (getting fed treats all of the way back).
Last night, for the first time, I recalled him from the subject. Based on his response, I have to wonder if having the subject feed him treats all of the way back, after each run, was such a good idea. He has developed a very strong sense of subject loyalty and he doesn't want to leave when recalled.
(I can post a video of this training if you want to see what I am talking about).
I know that when you introduce a new component in training, you step back and make the learned component easier while the dog is learning a new component. I didn't do that last night (my fault) because I wanted to see what he would do.
So my question(s) are,
How do you transition from the subject being the single most fun person in the game, to the handler and the subject being fun (the ping pong effect)?
**First thing I'm going to do, is stop the feeding from the subject on the return**
Would you work on the bark alert first, at the same time, or after the recall is learned?
Cisco is my first SAR dog and we are learning together. I have made some (minor) mistakes and don't want to make any major mistakes.
I would sure appreciate any suggestions or tips from the experienced SAR K9 handlers on how you train the Recall/Re-find bark alert. If you want to PM me I would be happy to give you my cell number so we could talk about it.
Thanks for your help,
Cheri
Cisco has been doing puppy runaways for a couple of months now and I think he's ready for the next phase of Airscent training.
My goal for him is to be an Airscent dog with a, Recall/Re-find, handler bark alert.
Up until now (per the lead trainers advice) Cisco has been staying with the "subject" as he/she walks back to me (getting fed treats all of the way back).
Last night, for the first time, I recalled him from the subject. Based on his response, I have to wonder if having the subject feed him treats all of the way back, after each run, was such a good idea. He has developed a very strong sense of subject loyalty and he doesn't want to leave when recalled.
(I can post a video of this training if you want to see what I am talking about).
I know that when you introduce a new component in training, you step back and make the learned component easier while the dog is learning a new component. I didn't do that last night (my fault) because I wanted to see what he would do.
So my question(s) are,
How do you transition from the subject being the single most fun person in the game, to the handler and the subject being fun (the ping pong effect)?
**First thing I'm going to do, is stop the feeding from the subject on the return**
Would you work on the bark alert first, at the same time, or after the recall is learned?
Cisco is my first SAR dog and we are learning together. I have made some (minor) mistakes and don't want to make any major mistakes.
I would sure appreciate any suggestions or tips from the experienced SAR K9 handlers on how you train the Recall/Re-find bark alert. If you want to PM me I would be happy to give you my cell number so we could talk about it.
Thanks for your help,
Cheri
by clc29 on 16 August 2011 - 13:08
Hmmm.........I posted this Friday......hoping I would at least get a couple of replies.........Guess no one wants to offer their advice 
.
.
by GSDPACK on 17 August 2011 - 00:08
People like to talk about crap but training is just too much for some to know about.. LOL
I am not sure much about SAR but what you're describing is just more of an age and puppy issue than training issue.
I am not sure much about SAR but what you're describing is just more of an age and puppy issue than training issue.
by deacon on 17 August 2011 - 08:08
Sorry I can't help either! my dogs (PSD) are taught to find and bite or if the quarry is inaccessible to bark and detain.
by darylehret on 17 August 2011 - 12:08
The recall/refind was developed by one of the founders of SARDA when he realized his dog would accept a stick from the subject but retreive it to the handler. I would agree that the food should be dropped, but depends if Cisco likes toys and particularly whether he likes to retreive.
by sonora on 18 August 2011 - 00:08
Hi,
Maybe you should contact Elke Effler of (ASSDA),
through the German Shepherd Dog Council of Australia,(GSDCA).
Or Try this site: WWW.redog.ch.Switzerland.
Hope this helps.
Maybe you should contact Elke Effler of (ASSDA),
through the German Shepherd Dog Council of Australia,(GSDCA).
Or Try this site: WWW.redog.ch.Switzerland.
Hope this helps.
by clc29 on 18 August 2011 - 19:08
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for your replies.
Since I posted this I have been to two trainings..........one with my SAR group and the other with my SchH Club.
I asked the lead trainers of each group the same question I posted and got two completely different contradictory answers......figures
.
My SchH trainer (PD K9 handler and Trainer) says Cisco is far to young to be starting to train for recall re-finds or the alert........He feels that we should continue doing runaways until Cisco can find the subject at 200 yards under every possible condition (including cold starts) before introducing another component.
I told my SAR trainer what the SchH trainer recommended and then asker her what she would do. She replied that she did not see any harm in starting to teach the alert, but agreed that teaching the recall re-find should wait until he has been doing consistent 100 to 200 yard finds. She also wants me to continue with having the subject reward Cisco on the return, because she feels building a solid subject loyalty (ensuring the dog will go into the subject) is a crucial part of search dog training (I agree). It's her opinion that as he gets older he will naturally start to pull away from the subject on the return.
So for now....we will just keep doing runaways of different lengths, in varied terrains and climates until he locates the subject every time with out handler or subject assistance.......Which I'm guessing will only be for another 2 or 3 months anyway......because he's is so freaking smart:).
Until my next question.......Thanks for reading my post and taking the time to reply.
Cheri
Thanks for your replies.
Since I posted this I have been to two trainings..........one with my SAR group and the other with my SchH Club.
I asked the lead trainers of each group the same question I posted and got two completely different contradictory answers......figures
.My SchH trainer (PD K9 handler and Trainer) says Cisco is far to young to be starting to train for recall re-finds or the alert........He feels that we should continue doing runaways until Cisco can find the subject at 200 yards under every possible condition (including cold starts) before introducing another component.
I told my SAR trainer what the SchH trainer recommended and then asker her what she would do. She replied that she did not see any harm in starting to teach the alert, but agreed that teaching the recall re-find should wait until he has been doing consistent 100 to 200 yard finds. She also wants me to continue with having the subject reward Cisco on the return, because she feels building a solid subject loyalty (ensuring the dog will go into the subject) is a crucial part of search dog training (I agree). It's her opinion that as he gets older he will naturally start to pull away from the subject on the return.
So for now....we will just keep doing runaways of different lengths, in varied terrains and climates until he locates the subject every time with out handler or subject assistance.......Which I'm guessing will only be for another 2 or 3 months anyway......because he's is so freaking smart:).
Until my next question.......Thanks for reading my post and taking the time to reply.
Cheri
by darylehret on 18 August 2011 - 19:08
You're not getting consistent finds at 100 yds? Is the dog's starting point the same as the subject's? Does the dog watch as the subject is leaving? Is anticipation built up? How long before you begin the search?
This really isn't the place to ask SAR questions anyway, but there is a specific Yahoo group or forum they flock to, and quite a few SAR volunteers on the workingdog forum. There's a lot of general information your initial post lacks, and with an all-SAR group, you're more likely to pose questions to the right people, who are familiar with YOUR ongoing progress, which will make it easier for them to understand you.
This really isn't the place to ask SAR questions anyway, but there is a specific Yahoo group or forum they flock to, and quite a few SAR volunteers on the workingdog forum. There's a lot of general information your initial post lacks, and with an all-SAR group, you're more likely to pose questions to the right people, who are familiar with YOUR ongoing progress, which will make it easier for them to understand you.
by clc29 on 18 August 2011 - 22:08
Hi Daryl,
We have only been doing 100 yrd runaways for a week...before that we were doing 50 yrds for about 2 1/2 months.
Yes Cisco and the subject always start at the same point. He is teased with hot dogs at the start and gets his name called out once as the subject leaves. Then the subject is quiet until he finds him/her. We don't get him any more ramped up because he doesn't need it (already rearing to go).
Our training sites are all over the metro area at trail heads. The terrain varies from very dry sandy juniper to mountain forest. If you want to watch a couple of his runs I posted some on Vonissks Question for SAR people post in the All Breeds Forum (might be 2-3 pages back, Aug 5th)
The times (3 total) he got confused were when the winds switched on him or died completely. Even then it only took one call out from the subject to get him going in the right direction.
Last night we did 125 yrds, in forest, with little to no wind and he lost site of her at 50 yrds. As I was about to send him out a mountain biker came flying around the corner and startled him and I. He has seen very few bikers. It took me a minute to get him settled down and refocused enough to send him. When I sent him he took off in her direction then stopped at about 50 yrds, turned back towards me (in the direction the biker went) and started barking. I gave him the search command and he took off again and raced right to the area she was hiding. He had to work a little to find her but succeeded (whole run took maybe 5-10 minutes including settle time).
Would you mind sending me the link to the workingdog forum?
Thanks for your help.
Take Care,
Cheri
We have only been doing 100 yrd runaways for a week...before that we were doing 50 yrds for about 2 1/2 months.
Yes Cisco and the subject always start at the same point. He is teased with hot dogs at the start and gets his name called out once as the subject leaves. Then the subject is quiet until he finds him/her. We don't get him any more ramped up because he doesn't need it (already rearing to go).
Our training sites are all over the metro area at trail heads. The terrain varies from very dry sandy juniper to mountain forest. If you want to watch a couple of his runs I posted some on Vonissks Question for SAR people post in the All Breeds Forum (might be 2-3 pages back, Aug 5th)
The times (3 total) he got confused were when the winds switched on him or died completely. Even then it only took one call out from the subject to get him going in the right direction.
Last night we did 125 yrds, in forest, with little to no wind and he lost site of her at 50 yrds. As I was about to send him out a mountain biker came flying around the corner and startled him and I. He has seen very few bikers. It took me a minute to get him settled down and refocused enough to send him. When I sent him he took off in her direction then stopped at about 50 yrds, turned back towards me (in the direction the biker went) and started barking. I gave him the search command and he took off again and raced right to the area she was hiding. He had to work a little to find her but succeeded (whole run took maybe 5-10 minutes including settle time).
Would you mind sending me the link to the workingdog forum?
Thanks for your help.
Take Care,
Cheri
by darylehret on 18 August 2011 - 22:08
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