some trainingpics from yesterday - Page 2

same training , but look very good alphapup , ears up , smiling and eyes open on long bite

It's official, I have gone blind........looks like a  functional working team to me.  Good job Duke!

    Explanation for new comers. : I am not doing Sch .. as a matter of fact , what you do not have the opportunity to see is the dog being threatened by a decoy- as evident from the head lowered but intent look  . the dog is correct -as i have taught him ! before i departed his eyes are glued onto me . As i have left , like martial arts -he was taught   this specificly in  context  .. he is to  100% focus on and keep  his  eye on the opponent now threatening !! the dog is correct to be watchful of a threat !!. [ nor i look at him !!~]Your comment , not appropriate :  no leash / no collar , in a sustained platz , he is not merely 'just' under my control .. but the DOG  has tremedous  'Self control '. To hold until waiting for my verbal cue to attack .. that is control !! He's not stupid , he could have boken under the context of agitation , the moment i departed !! .. yes - the contol i instill is "self control" .... anyone doing personal protection or many ringsports has this 'type' of self control .. those disciplines are CONTROL endeavors . People doing PP or in Ring know this to be true : Many dogs are tempted and can easily break  their line of departure.  So i don't take your commentary as offensive . You did not know the context of the exercise. [ i purposely leave my dogs to teach tjem commands come from me anywhere , anytime , anyplace !]. 
             The dog and I , work in unison in mind , purpose and motivation - this is  why i CAN LEAVE  !. .  However , you stated the premise regarding your dog , clearly yourself : " I want the dog to do what I  want it to do  and not what it wants to do ". For the record .. this is how I DO NOT train !! [Nor will i share with you differently , because of your tone and being sassy ]. Because of arrogance like you have expressed , i had previuosly stopped posting on the PDB..  My  mistake ... for trying to come back and help others ![ BTW -- i don't mean you -you are doing just fine, ]! All that you needed  to have done  was just post the second set of photos and give a plausible explanation in reference to the dog's expression about the  first set. I would have listened and if there was a reason the dog presented  that way .. I would have acknowledged it !!. No problem .. Then I would have learned something.. and I would be thankful.            
            BUT ... I will tell you with certainty ./. Your attitude about what your dog wants vs what you want. the Tone , the Beligerance, the way you wrote to me [ ie  the arrogance and demeaning tone] , that IMO is exactly why your dog looks the way it does in the first photo [ stressed] & trying to cope.   You called it exactly .. BY Golly , your dog IS GOING to DO what you want [ one way or another ]!!  Now regarding the dog behavior in the first pics, now I am convinced that which i first wrote is not far off the mark .  Just by your words to me . Unkind , impatient . ... and I think , even if unintentionally to your dog ...that is your way : MY dog IS going to do whnat I want . Forceful /                 I qualified in my first post .. there was never an intentional to post in order to  bash -j I was making an observation.../ and something lead to the dog behaving /appearing the way it does .. .. you could have explained to me and the  thread readers why the dog looks such and simply disagreed .. so exactly WHY are you so defensive ?? We all learn and make mistakes ... I do ... so do we all.
                  Now a word for the new comers. [ not in ref. to duke] .. but take note .. i have seen many train ,  many ,   thinking , and with good intention , that they are training positvely ... but that does not imply it is "True Positive " OR  "True Motivational " training . !! True motivational training is to be able to walk away from your dog , remove all restraints but your ,mouth , and still have the  follow YOUR direction while being threatened .  [ this is not done in Schtuzhund].         ***   for the record  duke .. intially i did not put the training onto you .. for all  i know this was not even your dog , you maybe recently bought the dog/adopted it , or it was being handled by another as I let others handle my dogs even as pups .

Duke- I always get a good smile from a great training day, usually lasts a while too. :-) keep up the great work and enjoy your obviously close bond with your girl. Please keep sharing too. I enjoy seeing the pictures very much. Theresa

Alphapup,
what is in your left and right hand in the picture?

Jim

alphapup , when I command on your picture , you write  : You did not know the context of the exercise 


did you know context  when looking at my pictures and made judgemend that ,  dog , training and helperwork were no good

sure I want the dog to do what I want , ,or can you make your dog wanting to make full points in IPO by himself

you can call me arrogant , but I think its arrogant to write all you wrote based on four pictures ,from which next four  pictures show you are wrong in your judgement
you cant see dogs eyes in picture , but you ASSUME  they are closed , and based on your ASSUMING , you give judgement 

I pict those pictures to post because I like focus and concentration in a dog , if I didnot , I would have posted the second set instead , and your judgement of dog , training and helperwork would be totally different , so maybe you should think twice before you tear apart someones training and dog based on few pictures .

duke - last post .. irregardless of the context ... the picture of the dog in the sit .. is deplorable no matter what the context. never ever would i have a dog near me ,next to me , whether performing an 'at rest' ,  obedience , tracking , protection , that present that way . it is my responsibility to teach the dog in such a way that it alway understands  and knows : that it feels safe , sound , confident and a sense of well being. My post again , was  not to critiszie ... there is something wrong. even if the picture of that dog occured ONCE ... there is something out of place . YOU ARFE INDICATING TO ME THAT YOU CANNOT SEE THAT ? YOU STATED 'A GOOD TRTAINING DAY .. for who .. you or the dog ?? i am interested ONLY in the dog . . !! IF you do see what i am saying : an intelligent owner and trainer , takes note , understands WHY , and rectifies it such that it never happens again .. i beleive that you have a thousand photos otherwise .. BUT the state of the dog as presented by the 1st picutre is what  it is . Personally i don't care if one trains goood / bad ..  I pass no Judgement !! it was not a critism .. ,it was a post to have others learn from your picture . THAT is my only , and only one prupose . It was an instructinal comment - until you made it personal ..
            good helper work .. consdider this. a  good helper , skilled helper ., knowledgable helper : always , always , always , gives the bite into body .. a any dog can be or is strong away from body .. but the confidence , skill , temperament , and skill of the dog is developed and tried - into the body .. ? why as a hleper condition a dog to take a bite out of body space ..  never do i give the bite outside . that is "false confidence" .  if a dog cannot bite into the body at five feet , then why even bother doing a send where the dog bites 2 feet away from the helper? if you want the dog to bite into body ... then practice it that always -always . IS the dog strong/confident in that bite - again , your words .. a good training day . ..  not a good bite to me . [ and yes i qualfied the eyes - stated not sure , ? were they open ? didn't seem to be. why-  because they are paramount in understanding the stress of the dog , the quality of the bite /protection ]. that / a golden retriever will bite away from body , goodness !! THAT just not an opinion .. it is just good dog training !!
               In everything i do .. i state attentiveness .. have for 20 years .. focus is NOT the SAME ../ a dog can be looking at you .. false focus .. it's merely looking at you . That picture .. the dog is so concerned in the sit .. it is complying . staring /looking up , at you is not the same as a dog being with you in mind and spirit !! [ actually it is concerned about itself]. WANTING to be of one mind and the dog looking toward you , into you .. like it is it's own life is not the same 'your idea focus'. That dog is so removed from you in that photo you can't even recognize it . Again . YOU THINK that is 'good attention ' , a good training day ?.. That is not good attention .. no reference to you .. just commentaing on the presentation of the dog .. it is deplorable attention !! the photo tells it all .. as stated : Just look at that dog !!          althought my dog is correct on concentrating on the decoy AFTER i left , his mind is more at one with me as he is looking at the decoy , using his hears instead , than your dog sitting right next to you ! somehow i think you wil be offended by this , it is not a critsim . I wish you could transcend to understand this . this is my last post on this thread. take and do what i had to write as you will . curse me if you will . which brings me to your next comment.
       First , i have friends that own some of the best GSD in the Entire World !! to to them i expressed ... points to me mean not a thing , nor a title !! Personally , i would rather  have the best RELATIONSHIP a man could have with a dog &the best in performance .. all esle falls into place thereafter. that's me.  and yes ,   a dog can get full point in a happy good work attitude. my friend and mentor taught me this ... made 100% sure that I knew this . and he proved it to me by once getting In Germany a perfect 300 Sch score at BSP, a standing ovation to boot. He is the one that shared with me as i have on the forum about obedience and a dog's attitude. My job , with my dogs is to have them understand the reality of thier life , our lives , what is BEST for them .. is for them to want what we need to do . my dogs heel .. NOT BECAUSE i TELL them .. when cued they heel because i have put it into their minds and hear such that .. they want to heel more than i want them to heel . moreover .. the heel occurs ,  BECAUSE I ALLOW THEM TO HEEL . my dog in that picture .. i do not send him .. he is ALLOWED  to attack -  and ono collar/ off leash this is not so easy. BUT , that is the RELATIONSHIP .  when  his eyes are onto me at times , , not becacuse i tell him .. because he wants to . . !! the best place in the world , next to me .. the opposite of that picture . THAT is a COMPETITION DOG !! IMO .. the picture of the dog relates what the dog is feeling . from good intention - you got defensive , . like others .. i would have been very happy to convesre with you .. either you would could have  helped me or i you .. to bad ... all that i know - you have given no explanation : why does the dog present that way & why do YOU think that is GREAT ATTENTION ??  I say no more . post no more !!

ill take a few points here ALPHA , first off all , if you have a friend who is a great trainer in germany , really doesnot put more value to your comment

second , you keep going on about bite into the body , or bite  outsite the body  , to make something clear , IN TRAINING I WANT NOTHING BUT BITE OUTSIDE THE BODY

if my trainingmethodes are different than yours just say so , but dont say its bad because its different than what you are used to do , or again assume the dogs eyes are closed , if you cant see her eyes on the picture

have a good one

for the readers  and more so again new comers ... not fair for me to leave this unesxlained to you please  contemplate : 
               **All that training is - IS Communication .. nothing ,more and no less.
                   that first picture of the sit .. the dog is saying that it is in a state of stress due to a conflict .. the ears back : is  the dog talking : the dog is expressing  in behavioral lingo : "calming signal " .  As I  stated trying to " cope" , trying to avert a confrontation . The dog is simnilarliy stating that it is uncomfortable in the handler's body space and /or it is uncomfortable with the handler in it's body space ! it wants 'out'. It offersd an 'APPEASEMENT BEHAVIOR'. .  Another innate dog behavior , another form of communication to diffuse conflict. . !!             [ Body space ] . So what has this dog learned .. that in certain  specific contexts it is uncomfortable , unsure , ? fearful encroaching onto a human body space and being asked to do somethin i.e 'atttention'. .. the second picture .. a WHOLE DIFFERENT CONTEXT , the dog just sitting has no responsibility on it to act , to perfrom .. yes that is figuratively and literally a different picture not just to the observer but also in the dog's mind !! Remember body space . Never ever do I reprimand a dog / punish a dog in MY body space !! If the dog has not preformed , i first ask , why . if it is a protest then I lovingly , kindly assert myself , enforce myuself .. Never ever reprimand the dog .. Not to mention , if attention is taught correctly within the right relationship /../ your dog should not even want to wait to look at you. and if your dog desires not to look at you [ an avoidance behavior] i suggest : time to go home / hang it up. !  I liken this is my classes : if your dog has nmo dseirte to be with you or COME to you .. something is drastically wrong , in general , not to the specific .    
        protection ...   I will encolurage you train  such that , body space is not an issue. people make issues , not dogs.   why ? .. you send the dog on a face attack / courage test . the helper holds the sleeve horozontally , chest high , running to the dog . ? what is the picture to the dog ??  so now the dog has to bite in close to body , closer than it was conditioned to do ... , now will the dog weaken as evident by a less full bite , less of a grip , will it bite -slide a bit and then re-grip ??   All of a sudden .. you see a problem ... not recognizing the dog behaves exactly how it was conditioned to , how it gained succes and is comfortable in.
             the bark and hold _ some helpers approach the dog and go into it close to teach the bark and hold ... others let the dog appraoch ,. No matter _ the AIM  is for the dog to be in close , controlling the helper ,  expressing power , stregnth and confidence towards the helper. what is the dog to feel that has been taught to ' bite out pof body - away from the helper'?? ?? ...or... in your bark hold the dog seems to look ok .. now you send the dog to the blind ..[ when a dog is stressed ,it reverts back to its foundation , which was success from biting away from body ], AAHH .. now you see the dog not encroach upon the helper - it's now alone , taught to enc ounter away . /DSome dogs need to be taught they have permission to encounter  into a human ... it is a learned behavior ! . you scratch your head wondering WHY- WHY this problem ,  is the dog far away doing the bark hold .. NOW ... how arfe you going to fix it ... do you realize from where the problem POSSIBLY originated ??
             ok .. the two points together .. a dog that in certain scenarios / contexts not comfortable close to handler /owner ... so when the dog has to work alone close to another strange helper .. what is the dog going to think and feell. all that i can say . different dogs ... different behavioral responses. each dog is unique . different scenarios at times the dog reverts back to what it has prevciously felt and learned .. DO you novice understand WHY I commented on the pictures as I did ..
                        do you novices understand now .. Be CAREFUL WHAT YOU TEACH / OR FAIL TO. ... ALWAYS  read your dog .. it is always talking to you ...   training is communication ..and a PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSSAND WORDS !! NOW I LEAVE THIS THREAD !!

slamdunc ..sorry .. i  didn't see your question .. I beleive  that  i am holding a 6" bite tug . it is not an e collar , as this dog  was never trained with any  collar until 5 months old . a collar utilized in the intiail agitation work . i was  directing  him for the correct turning of the head in ring  sport  and  also to help increse the speed of his entry bite . . OB was done no collar / no leash .  At the time that picture was taken jim , this dog had not had a bite session for 4 years ! he is 9.5 yrs now. i was only utilizing a tug in order to teach a friend protection work [ he drove 6 hours round trip to learn this]. I taught him protection theory and how to sleeve with a Sch sleeve , how to decoy FR Ring with a leg sleeve. Jim , at 10 months old this dog helped perform in a police demo : an apprehension ,    guard/hold/apprehend upon escape , and a pat down .  In his prime , the dog also got an invite to go to BSP in Germany !!
             the reason for the tug is that i was teaching my friend  , how to teach a dog the "call off " ... I was also demostrating that i could go anywhere in the presenmce of the dog being threatend and he wopuld hol , until told otherwise. i illistrated to him that  a dog learning for the first time , as i call the dog back , the tug acts as a reason , a motivation , to instill in the dog to want to cease it's attack and to return . ,My explanation to him :  if i am going to ask the dog not to bite , i give  the dog a reason [ and condition that motivation  , shape the mindset of the dog ]  by simply substituting another desirable behavior for the dog to reach it's  goal .. In this case : another  bite. . this dog was taught off  leash .. he would do ANYTHING for a bite . taught off leash at close distance at first then the legnth of the distance increased . successive approximation . OR it can be taught with a long line .. As i write .. I always set the dog up to be correct ., make the right choice. .  In truth , my GSD had already mastered , the "out" off the person with call to heel and he mastered a call off of the send/bite  years before this day . .. that is why the deoy/helper is quite a disatance out of the photo . .. i ddn't even know the picture was being taken . . again the tug was just one way to teach my friend how to teach the dog.
              . But what i want the readers to understand .. the tug was a 1. form of COMMUNICATION "if this ... then that " ...  the dog was motivated , and 2. then i became the reinforcer.  such that irregardless if i have a tug or not , the dog works in union with me.  - when it is all said and done .. I am and MUST  BE  the dog 's ultimate reinforcer.[ or enforcer] . the tug just pairs me to his motivation .