by Sunsilver on 26 September 2021 - 14:09
Decided this should have its own thread, as it's not related to the thread I posted it in. How stacking a dog can affect its appearance. Phyliss Raca posted this on FB, but she's not the originator of the photo.
by Sunsilver on 27 September 2021 - 10:09
Geez, I KNEW it looked wrong when I posted it...must have been pre-coffee! :D
by Hundmutter on 28 September 2021 - 04:09
Remember Noddi ? She doesn't bother to come here any more but is active on Facebook. She is fond of posting a triptych of photos of one of her dogs on there, which roughly equate to pics 1,3 & 4 of your photos, Sunny. Which shows that this is indeed quite possible, whatever the likes of Johan choose to think. Carole's bitch was of modern breeding, although I think the breeding was by another established figure on our UK GSD 'scene'; she is now deceased but not so long ago that she wasn't typical of the majority of our current dogs (and their backlines!).
And what about all those stories from people (including me) who have had members of the public come up and say how great it is to see a dog with a ['straight'/'flat', whatever] back "instead of those awful banana-shaped dogs on that TV programme" ... and then been shown that our dogs can be 'stood' shorter to look considerably more 'curved' ?
When we see ONE photograph of any dog, no matter from what year it originates, that dog could have been made to look different - sometimes to a more marked degree than others, ok, but it cannot be said that there was no difference possible 'because all the old dogs were different to today's dogs'. The only ones I believe you cannot do so much with (and this is from hands-on experience) are those dogs actually bred with a dip behind their withers, ie a weaker spine. Commonly, some people think those are 'correct' !
by Sunsilver on 28 September 2021 - 09:09
Yep, I've often seen koer reports of dogs like that saying they have good withers, and I just roll my eyes...
Hundmutter, since this post is about conformation, and not the sable colour, I'm going to comment on something you said in the sable thread:
However, I don't know which dogs Sunsilver speaks of. Jumping ability does not seem to be tested these days at any country's Seigers.
What I was referring to is what I have actually seen in the show ring: a female SO overangulated in the rear that she not only wouldn't have been able to jump, she had trouble holding a stack, and needed support from her handler to do so.
Even worse, she walked away with the top ribbon for that particular class. And this was at an Ontario regional championship!
You've seen dogs like this - I've seen the infamous video from the Crufts show ring a number of years ago, where a similar dog took best of show or best of breed, forget which.
Too much angulation weakens the rear end, and prevents the dog from having enough power in the rear to jump or even trot correctly. It happens in the ASL ring, and is now also happening in the Germans shows as well.
Wish I had a nickel for every owner of a young GSD (usually around 5 months) who's come on the message board complaining their dog looks weak in the rear, and they are afraid it might have hip dysplasia. 90% of the time, it's overangulation that's to blame. These dogs are usually also cow-hocked. Sometimes they grow out of it once they are past the gangly adolescent phase, sometimes they don't.
by Hundmutter on 28 September 2021 - 13:09
Yes she got to the Group because she got BoB. Then thrown out of the group because she very publicly went to pieces. But you know, that bitch had awards galore, inc CCs I'm pretty sure, she may even have been made up to Champion a few weeks later. I'd have to do research I haven't time for at present to find all the facts about her - they are on record. Did not ever see her in the flesh myself, but its apparently not that she is that badly constructed; many excellent & experienced judges went over her. I'm told she just threw a [literal !] 'wobbly', maybe because of the big ring atmosphere (it is a contrast to the judging rings @ Crufts which are usually too small !), maybe because she was coming into season. She is perfectly capable of standing and walking normally, without any appearence of being cow-hocked. Just shows how flexible they are, and what a minefield it is making assessments to critique dogs from one still picture.
by Sunsilver on 28 September 2021 - 14:09
by johan77 on 28 September 2021 - 15:09
by Hundmutter on 29 September 2021 - 04:09
Johan, I don't think they are - or not at least to such a degree that you can claim it won't make ANY difference. The differences between Show (and Pet, both 'modern, Germanic' and NOT - ie those based on the English 'Alsatian' lines & type) I agree are variable. It will depend on the skeleton and muscular inheritance of the individual dog, yes, but biologically under the skin the skeleton of ALL dogs is much the same basic 'design'.
I have lived and worked with not just Germanic Show stock but also mutiple dogs of mixed Working / Showline breeding, and visually of assorted 'shapes'. I have stood dogs so they look both longer and 'flatter', or shorter and more curved, than they actually are when left to themselves, [whether that starts out short and 'low' backed, or longer and ski-sloped (c/f Ambreds), or medium length and more upwardly curvy.] I have backed off and watched dogs just wandering around, and seen many times a dog which has what can be considered an 'old-style' ( or W/L ) backline, still stand themselves beautifully, where they show a curve of continuous topline any exhibitor would die for ! They certainly don't look 'straight', as in 'flat'. Nobody is saying every dog bred has a topline that is correct ; nobody is saying one could, or should, make a dog look positively 'hinged' mid-back. It is a weird interpretation of the Standard ! And in fact in Conformation competition it is extremely rare for the worst examples of such dogs to achieve high honours. But yes people continue to breed with them ... but then there are people, who are not very good at it, breeding with dogs with all sorts of other faults, for some reason known only to themselves in what they want to see / achieve, or even for no rationale at all.
And do not get me started on Photoshopping of formal pics !!!
by GSCat on 29 September 2021 - 08:09
Do you place the back paws or the front first? Or go around in a circle?
Learned my particular dog it was easier to place the back, and then the front. Unfortunately, I learned this after taking her to our first show.
by Rik on 29 September 2021 - 09:09
in AKC normally placed front first, starting with outside leg, then the rear. some handlers train them to walk into a perfect stack. and the Euro handlers all good at walking them into it from the rear.
a double handler is usually in front somewhere to get and keep dogs attention.