Bitework training with absolutely no corrections - Page 1

I was speaking with an acquaintance the other day who *claims* to be knowledgeable in regards to working dogs of all sorts. We got into a heated debate about the use of corrections to train a sport or personal protection dog, specifically police dogs. I was obviously baffled as to how he could suggest the possibility of training and proofing a PPD or police dog without the use of a prong or e-collar.

He forwarded me this article:
http://emainehosting.com/mesard/Articles/Not%20Using%20Force%20in%20Police%20Dog%20Training.htm

I read it, but it doesn't seem to address the specific problems that I imagine one would come across. My basic thought process is, if I have a dog with the amount of drive I desire (...a lot...), teaching an out or a guard would be next to impossible without a correction of some sort. I mean, I don't even take my dogs out for a potty or walk without their Sprengers. Which made me wonder, are there any people that have trained a trial ready (Sch, PSA, Ring, Mondio, etc) or police dog with +R only? I can't believe I'm even wondering this, because it literally never even crossed my mind that someone would be able to achieve it. Any stories, experience, etc. would be great to hear.

Sheila Booth, supposedly.

We have a couple positive only trainers in our club. Both of them started with more mature dogs, not pups. One is a cattle dog mix that got his IPO-vo last fall. The owner is doing a lot of foundation work with clicker, and shaping certain behaviors. She is also training a malinois currently. I dont think I ever seen more then a firm hold on the fur saver or a regular pet collar by her. But have seen taking the dog off the field, or carrying it of the field if things got out of hand. So basically, its possible, you have to know what you are doing, it takes a much longer time, helper and owner need to communicate very well, and not probably every dog fits the pot.

The other is training a Great Dane, also all positive. Corrections just by giving time out in the car, and we  are reminded to ignore the dog when he acts goofy. Again, will take a long time too.

Both are certified pet trainers.

I am not necessary agreeing with everything as I think in some ways a couple quick corrections to get your point across gets you along quicker (and I do have a demanding job where I just cant doodle around with my dogs all week long - even though I wish....LOL). Yet to each their own, and we respect each others training styles and dont mind helping each other to achieve a goal.

I'm not one that thinks that a dog isn't trained and proofed without force.  I don't care if people do force retrieves or not but so far my dogs have loved retrieving and I've had no trouble training correct, quick retrieves with absolutely no chewing.  Also I haven't had dogs that needed corrections to teaching outing in protection either but I do work my dogs on prong collars.  I fail to see the point of trying to train a dog for SchH on the basis of never using a correction or "aversive" because to me part of the POINT of the training and titling is to demonstrate that the dog can work in drive and maintain obedience under some pressure/stress.  See Ash Foster's IPObservations video, I think it sums it up quite well.  SchH is a balance between showing control and precision while maintaining drive while the dog is working through some conflict based on how the exercises are designed.  If you don't want your dog to deal with any stress, don't do SchH.

Im Breaking out in hives!

They Seem to go away after all the BS stops.lol
So Slam are you telling me you have had these symptoms before?.lol Let me know the easiest way to get rid...lol

Interesting article.  However, it lost a lot of credibility, IMO with the person mentioned in the first sentence.  That article goes through the basics of motivationally training a dog and breaking exercises down to their fundamental components.  For example; teaching a retrieve starts with teaching the dog to hold an object calmly and firmly.  Then the dog picks up the object, then picks up and sits, then sits in front all while holding firmly and calmly.  Then the object is placed a short distance away and the dog picks it up, brings it and sits in front.  Then the dog is taken outside and this is done again and then when this is perfect the object is thrown.  And the actual retrieve training starts.  Every exercise should be broken down into it's most fundamental components and taught motivationally.  After all this comes the "proofing" and that is where negative re-enforcers come into play.  This is an old article and does a nice job of discussing the basics of positive training.  A nice starting point when training and most of the concepts are still sound.  There is nothing new in this article.  

AUBS47,
No I don't break out in hives.  LOL  I have found that alcohol cures most ailments of this nature.  If it doesn't cure it, you simply just won't care.  I had a day at work today that would cause most people to break out in hives.  Your right it all goes away when the BS stops and the laughter starts.

I had only one male that had never seen a prong....
He outed....later after I was DQed, his obedience was upbeat and I nearly died doing it. He was awesome..... failed ZVV3 twice, was an anarchist an I was too young to know any better. He bit about 3 people, was known to jump 6 foot fence to corner my always drunk neighbor, he killed a deer once and cleaned out our chicken coop, and I had to undo all the no correction things with a shovel after he tried to eat me over a decaying carcass of some unidentifiable road kill. Those were the good times!
He was a superb dog...with really bad training done by a teenage girl.