The Sendout -Step by Step - Page 1

Alrighty, I know there are a lot of years of experience on this board, so... I would like to pick your brains please :-)
Teaching the sendout:
Started with placing the ball a few feet in front of dog, gradually made it longer distances and now he is full field away. He does great! Heels nicely very amped and then takes off like a bullet when I say Voraus and motion. Truly beautiful!
Problem: transitioning from walking or running him with me to place th ball at the end of the field and then returning at the opposite end to begin heeling- when I run him down with me and place the ball he is great. If I do it without him with me, have someone else do it, or do it with him BEFORE the retrieves, he doesn't "get it". Am I being impatient? We have been working this for about 6 months. He is EXTREMELY routine/pattern oriented, so my guess is no. What I think might help is some sort of transitioning step/ stage to wean him off of heeling down there with me to drop the ball... Even when he sees someone else at the end of the field drop the ball, it's not really working. Any thoughts, suggestions or previous experiences welcome! Thanks!
Theresa

I may have an answer, but I need clarification on "send out."   Are you talking about when the dog goes around each blind to look for the helper?

dog in prey drive
act crazy running away from dog with ball
place on the hanging device
run back to dog
make crazy
let go and say the "word"
dog runs to ball
praise dog

do this many times
then increas distance

do this many more times
increase distance

add the down command.

your dog should already know that down is down.........near or far.......

works for me....

Do you drop the ball on the ground or hang it with a clothes pin from a "hanging tree" or garden flag holder?  Keep in mind that dogs do not see stationary objects very well.  They see movement better than us but are not as adept at picking up a stationary object such as a ball.  Dogs do have "place association" and I always do the send away at the same place on a field.  Once the dog associates the spot of the ball with the send away he / she will get it.  I always use the spot where I do the recall from the down out of motion.  This creates that place association.  

If I were you; here's what I do:  
First down the dog at the distance you are going to send him, then go to the send away location and place the ball.  Let him watch you while you have him in a down stay.  The dog is placed in a down and sees you hang the ball and then is sent.  Keep increasing the distance and the dog is downed further back each time while you run and place the ball, then run back to the dog.  Do not run up to the spot with the dog, he watches you while you run to the spot and place the toy.  The downing will build drive and he will be ready to run from the spot you send him.  When you return to him pump him up and send him.  He is now running straight from greater distances each time.  Initially with young dogs I bring the dog to the hanging tree and pull the dog back a short distance but I move away form this as soon as the dog knows the down stay.  

Next, have a friend enter the field and place the ball for you, preferably on a "hanging tree."  Bring the dog out and start close and send the dog.  The dog may run slowly but will quickly see the ball.  Reward and play and have your club member place a second ball on the tree while you re rewarding.  Start again from a slightly further distance.  The dog will run and find the ball, repeat and increase the distance slightly.  

You could also place the ball on the hanging tree and heel the dog around it, then heel away and send the dog.  Like before gradually increase the distance.

Next, when you start doing the whole obedience routine always have a friend place the ball for  you and in the dog's mind it is always there when you send him.  Have your friend or club member place the ball after the recall with out the dog seeing.  The down is taught completely separately and rarely added in to the send away.  

I agree with Slam, only additions I can offer is to use one designated toy
to have for the sendout. This is a high value toy he'd go through fire for.

A good friend taught us years back that to use one certain toy for the voraus
and another designated one for tracking is a good way to start the training
so the dog learns to associate that one toy with that one exercise. It makes
sense, simple yes, but we have found it to be very successful over the years.

As Slam stated, platz the dog, then walk away, teasing with the toy, asking 
the dog where's the ___ voraus-where's the ___ voraus.  The platz will increase
his frustration, and he can clearly see where you are placing the toy. We don't use 
a hanger or anything special anymore, but we did previously use a very small road
cone, approx 6"-8" high to place the toy on. Once you place the toy and return to the
dog, make sure he doesn't break the platz. Ask him where's the ___-you want it?
When he tells you he really wants to go,-you need to watch his breathing and focus
at this point, ask him to sitz, then walk a few paces, again building him with the
words-where's the ___-voraus-where's the ___ voraus, no hollering, no yelling,
just  soft commands, then, when he's ready to almost break from the heel,
just point and shoot  Another alternative is to hold him back, loading him 
up asking where's the ___ voraus, and when he's raring to go pulling, send him!

Once the dog makes the connection with the special toy, you can either place the toy
out on the field while you are working on obedience, fuss him around it, again loading
a little asking as you pass the toy, where's the ____ voraus, then, fuss away to your 
start point and send him after another quick load up. Depending on the amount of
control you have at this point, you can also do a couple fake outs and start to fuss towards
the target, loading him by asking if he's ready etc, then a quick platz, or quick turn etc.
All depends on how much drive the dog has to offer in obedience, some will load from
lots of frustration, others lose steam quickly. 

If I'm reading it right Theresa, It sounds like something I did with my Rott where I created a pattern by walking out to place the ball. He wouldnt go out for it even if
it was in sight unless he saw me walk out with it. What may help you is to shorten the distance again and do alot of reps without all the obedience for awhile with
someone helping you  by placing 3 or 4 toys in a row. It will help him always think there's a toy out there, even if you have one in your hand. This clip from Ivan shows
it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moZVIEiDu2o

It has seemed to me that different dogs have different strengths and weaknesses...One of the things I look for in a dog is the ability to remember things...And I think one of them is to remember where you've put the toy...
If a dog has a problem with an exercise then you should "break down" the exercise into smaller pieces...Make the components of the exercise small enough for your dog to understand them...

Therefore...to me it seems like it's a problem with remembering...remembering where the toy is...So if your dog knows the "Send Out" exercise and you go to add something other component...such as doing another exercise before the "Send Out"...then I'd shorten the "Send Out"...I'd take it back to the beginning...I'd go much closer to the toy...Maybe don't even do a "Heel/Walk"...Just put your dog in drive...and send...

Remember...Dogs don't think in complicated terms...they think in very simple ones...

~Bob~

I teach the SchH/IPO send out with a toy but a bit differently than the rest of my club.  Instead of setting the ball on the ground or hanging it, my ball goes in this weird canister thing I call the "magic send out tube".  The tube is sort of like a giant tracking article.  The dog already knows to find it and platz on it (takes about two minutes to train this).  He also knows his favorite ball is inside because I can smell it and I show him that I'm putting it in there.  When I walk up he knows that the second my hand touches the magic tube, a ball flies out at him.  This is because I either have a second ball in my pocket that I flip out as my other hand touches the tube, or because I trick him when I'm placing the tube (I let him watch me "put" the ball in the tube except I turn my back and slip it in my pocket instead).  So, I send the dog to the tube/toy but he has to platz and wait for me to walk up before he gets a toy, he can't just snatch it off the hanging tree and run around.  I don't remove the toy and tell the dog to platz until trial.  In a different context I will work on commanding my dog to platz at a distance, but I find that doing too many full send outs with a real platz command can either diminish my dogs' drive/speed down the field or has him anticipating the platz.  When we did his SchH1 I believe he only did *one* real send out before the trial and he was great in the trial but this depends on the dog and whether you think you have sufficiently proofed the platz command elsewhere enough for it to carry over.  Once I've trained the dog that run to the tube and platz on it = getting favorite ball (I train this like I train articles in tracking off the track, just takes a few minutes), I simply build the distance.  I always move the dog away from the tube, never move the tube from the dog. So the tube is always in the same place at the end of the field, just like the send out markers/hanging trees and I just back the dog up.  Since I am lazy often what I do is take the tube with me when I do my down out of motion and recall.  Then we are right there at the end of the field so I free up the dog a bit in drive, show him the ball going in the tube or trick him, place the tube, then go back down field as we do our stand out of motion, and then I do my send out before my retrieves.  This particular dog was trained completely backchained freeshaped retrieves so there is no stress/pressure involved so I don't need to save the send out for the end as a way of releasing the pressure during obedience.  I don't mind doing it out of order as it saves me time having to run to the other end of the field.

OK I just typed up a loooong reply to each person and then the DB went offline and I lost it, so here goes again.
First- thank you to each one of you for taking the time to give me such detail in this exercise. I sincerely appreciate it!

Fawn, you are referring to the blind search in protection. The Voraus is the send out right after the retrieves in the obedience portion. THANK YOU!

SM, initially this is how I tried it, but took the dog with me to the spot where the ball was left instead of leaving him in a platz. At first it didn't work leaving him in platz and going and dropping the ball. This is the step I think I need to incorporate  now I think. THANK YOU!

Slam, In the very beginning I tried the garden flag holder, but it seemed to confuse him. ( I know that sounds ridiculous, but you would have to know this dog to understand, he walks to a different beat LMAO) I use a foot long white PVC pipe in the ground. it sticks out of the ground about 9 inches or so, and the ball is placed on top of it. It has worked well, but I think one of my issues is that I have gotten him in the habit/routine of going to place the ball first. My bad. I probably should have started platzing him while I go to place the ball months ago. Like you said, I do always put the ball in the same place and do the exercise the same. Also, having someone come and replace with another ball while I am rewarding is an awesome thought! I love it and will absolutely incorporate that! This is exactly what I meant when I said I was missing something transitioning step by step. I did try having someone put it out there while I did OB routine, but was missing a couple little steps in between- which you mentioned above. THANK YOU!

WDZ, Yes, just like you said, the PVC pipe mimicks the cone that you use. Thank you! What you said that really hit home is the verbal whispers to amp him and prepare him for this particular exercise. Heeling after he goes with me does indeed amp him up. I do also always use the same very special ball that he LOVES. The verbal whisper cues are huge, and great, so thank you for that!

Steve, It is very funny to me that you use your rott as an example. :-) This particular dog reminds me VERY much of my first Sch dog 20 yrs ago which was a male rottie. He has several of the same personality traits. It sounds identical to what you said about your rottie. Absolutely 100% key is to now shorten the distance, and then have someone else replace the ball  a couple of timeswhile I am rewarding him. This is really great, THANK YOU!

Bob, Yes, you are absolutely right of course. You know, this dog is not at all like other shepherds I have had. The things I think he should remember no problem, he does not, and the things I think he will not remember... of course he does. As you said though- shorten the distance again - that really appears to be key.
THANK YOU! :-)

VK, Your method is very interesting to me. I have never seen or heard of that for the send out. I am curious though. Do you know if there is any video of this method? The dog is taught this way based on hunt drive as opposed to prey drive, right?
Thank you very much for your very detailed explanation!

Honestly all, I am sincerely grateful for your time and for sharing your experience. Thanks so much!
Theresa

Working great so far, making very good progress! Thanks again!