Mal X German Shepherd - What do You Think? - Page 1

There is a lot of talk in our area (Southeastern US) about crossing the working GSD and Mals. This is what I'm hearing from the handlers on the field:

1. Desire a more controllable dog (mainly crowd friendly, such HS Football Games)
2. Outs more easily - w/o handler having to holster weapon (some small PD's, SD's, do no have adequate backup all the time.
3. They feel Mals sometimes move so fast during searches that they miss drugs, etc. and a mix may be better.
4. Desire larger dog on take down - resulting in less fight
5. Actually I feel that some just plainly feel that a GSD provides a stronger street presence (another issue all together)
6. Feel GSDXMAL better tracker and man stopper
7. Etc.

You probably have heard them all.

I would like to know your thoughts. The lists were too long to list. Both breeds have the merits, maybe a cross would do well?

Thanks for your thoughts.  By the way, Almost all of these MALS are coming from the same trainer, this could be part of the problem.

Again Thanks,
Tuff

I get really tired of geniuses here in the states trying to make every working breed "better".  There are plenty of breeds and plenty of different bloodlines and types within those breeds. 

To address your questions individually;

1)  Need more control around social situations?  Try some more obedience.  If you have a patrol dog that out of necessity has to be controlled around crowds, try spending some extra time doing some obedience.  Most K9 officers I know are only interested in drug searches, building searches and aggression tracks.  All of the "glory" stuff with none of the practical stuff.

2)  Funny, my dogs have never missed and "out" in a trial.  Guess it depends on how you train it, making an "out" punishment instead of a reward with a Malinois will screw you every time.

3)  Too much speed on drug searches?  Bad handling, usually relying on the dog's natural ability and very little on handling direction.  Keep the freakin' dog on a leash and direct him and stop letting him free search.

4)  Legally, how many times is your dog actually sent on a fleeing felon?  I can show you plenty of 60 pound Malinois that can take down decoys on a regular basis and these guys know how to catch dogs.

5)  Get some HGH and a bigger gun for the handler.

6)  Find a coach who knows how to teach tracking.  Personally I have put up 99's and "V" tracks with my Malinois.  Spend some time training and again stop relying on just what the dog brings to the table.  Just because a dog isn't a natural born tracker doesn't mean it can't be taught.

7)  Bottom line, a lot of the problems that you mention are training issues and not necessarily "dog" issues.  Lack of time spent, laziness or just plain lack of knowledge or ability are all training problems.  Have those coppers get out and do some training and get their noses out of the Ray Allen catalog. 

I agree with alot of what Phil is saying regarding this. To be honest I get tired of hearing how we need to improve K9 dogs overall when the reality of it is that we're getting piss poor handlers who know zip about the animals they work with. PD's are promoting guys to k9 handler just because their pappy bred 'coon dogs when they were growing up or they owned a gsd when they were a kid. To address some of your questions:
1. If the dog needs more control in crowds, do what Phil said, work on obedience. Otherwise get rid of the candy ass handler, and get someone who can make the dog mind.
2. If a dog won't out, it's due to poor training period.
3. During a narc search, who is controlling the situation, the dog or the handler?
4. If a 60 pound mali on a dead run can't punish the suspect at impact to the point that the guy gives up either get a new dog or shoot the guy.
5. Some dogs have presence, some don't. Breed has little to do with it. It's just that most people know what a gsd is.
6. Either a dog's got the nose to track or it doesn't; breed has nothing to do with it.

I personally train with someone who has crossed mals and gsd's. You're still going to get the same issues with the crosses, some good some bad. I've seen crosses that were great at the work and crosses that were crap, just like with the purebreds.

Thanks guys.
Sorry for the delay in response, actually been tracking two suspects from a shooting.
I was using my GSD and my partner was using a Mal. The suspects split up in a heavy rain but the idiots where channeled back together by rising water.
The suprising thing is both were caught within 20 minutes of each other. Both were cut up and bleeding rather badly which helped the dogs.
The dogs were great neither gave up, I would say they went beyond the call in very sloppy conditions.
 It ended good.
Both resisted and the dogs got their bite. Not bad for 3.75 hours. Of course we were all soaked.
GSD or Mal it was a tie tonight.
Tuff

I think that that is a bad idea, there is enough variations within both breeds to serve the purpose for the desired result. We need a whole lot less mutts out there and better trainers. Example Labradoodles. OMG sick of this mixing breeds to get the "better dogs". Nonsense!!! Those two breeds are great on there own, they don't need to be mixed. Mals and GSD are great breeds on there own and don't need to be mixed. JMO 

I agree, we have great breeds and various strains within each breed.  Since I first posted this thread several of us handlers and trainers have been discussing the issue.  We are split about 80/20 as to purebreds being the best. The 20% for Xbreds, well what do you say?

Most of us still favor GSD followed by Mals. Then 1 guy has a Dutchie (pretty impressive dog).

Thanks for your input.

Lots of misconceptions in this post.

I personally feel Mals are superior working dogs if all other things are equal.

Crossing the two isnt really the answer to the problems that were brought up. Most is training problems or just insecurities of handlers and trainers.

Sport tracking has NOTHING to do with police type tracking.

Blood isnt going to make things much easier for the dog. It just makes the handler feel better and gives the handler more confidence.

The rain actually is better tracking conditions for the dog.

Small Malis can take down very big guys.

Missing the narc finds is a training issue. If the dog is going too fast on searches it is likely a handling problem as well.

Too often people just cross a  Mal and a GSD and believe they are going to get super dogs. You have to cross a super Mali with a super GSD to get super pups.

A Mal/GSD cross isnt going to out any easier than a Mal will. 

If you cross the two then the handler is still going to have the skill to handle a pure Mali. 

Im not against crosses but there arent any viable reasons stated in this post.
 

I have to disagree with your comments on tracking.  Rain does not maker it easier to track.  If a track is laid in the rain, the ground is disturbed less as vegetation bends and does not break.  Continuing rain will wash scent away.  Now, having said that, if a track is laid in dry conditions and has aged for several hours or even days, a rain will revive the remaining scent and make it re-trackable for a dog.

As for the sport tracking having nothing to do with police search type tracking, I disagree as well.  I like to teach the footstep to footstep foundation and then amend it to a more freestyle track as the dog gets more experienced.  This enables a dog to use his/her nose deeply when scent is not readily available as when it comes from tall grass to very short or to gravel or asphalt.  A dog that is taught to air scent from the beginning will not be able to find such a track or will exhaust itself physically or drive wise while trying to find track again. 

A friend of mine that works for a local department told me recently that the 2 Malinois that his department has are terrible trackers.  I blame several factors, one, lack of knowledge about the breed before they were purchased.  Two, department heads pre-selected the dogs before handlers were even chosen because they wanted more PR dogs than actual dual purpose police K9's.  Three, handlers were inexperienced, in fact one had never owned a dog before. Four, foundation tracking by the providing agency was sub-standard and both handlers having no prior knowledge of scent detection are at a loss for skill to advance the animals.  Lord knows they won't go the extra mile and teach these dogs how to get to the next level, that would take time and money and thats not in the budget.  Frustrating,,,,,,, handlers and their parent department are at fault and of course the dogs get the blame and bad rep.

Maybe getting a hold of a Ray Allen catalog and buying a couple of sleeves will fix everything.

You really know nothing about real tracking huh? (shaking head)

Amazing!!!!! 

Really?  I guarantee you I have trained more police dogs to track over blacktop, gravel and certainly grass in the last almost 30 years than the majority of people reading this board.  I have also trained people and their dog partners to not only pass TD's but TDX's and VST's.  Personally my dogs have put up 99's and 96's and 97's at National Schutzhund events.  How about you?  I will put any of my tracking dogs up against yours any time you wish.  Care to accept the challenge?  Let's hear your tracking credential.  I suppose we could start with a name,,,or do we sign our checks "Heap Big Scout"?