growling..... - Page 1

ok....why does a dog growl when working on the pole? We are teaching the hold and bark...out quiet. His strikes are hard and fast...grips could be no fuller...plenty of fight. Off the pole...no growling when driven....inquiring minds want to know:-)

disclaimer...this dog is doing great things....personally for me the growling isn't a problem...just for future knowledge:-)

Ron,
Is he growling while on the sleeve or while the decoy approaches?  Is he just vocalizing or feeling a little defensive being back tied? 

Jim

Was gonna say kinda the same as Jimbo. Dog could be feeling more pressure since he has nowhere to go. Also, is the helper doing something different? Putting more pressure on the dog, trying to build intensity?

I was just speaking with someone yesterday who feels that the drive in SchH is a defensive approach to the dog.  I kinda disagree with that.  Although, a strong helper is over the top of the dog and driving the dog I personally do not think that alone switches a dog into defense.  For some dogs, sure it is possible and for those dogs the stick hits will add to the pressure.   I think working a dog on post and approaching frontally, squared off is far more likely to put  a dog into defense.  If that is the only time the dog is growling and his grips are good I wouldn't worry about it. 


Jim 

Regarding tie back to a pole : there a number of variables , the context , the helper , what he is doing , how he is doing it , his face , his feet , etc etc. not only is the person correct the dog has no place to go ... but that is just the surface .... consider this ... what are the options of the dog .. he has some little place to go , backwards , right or left sides, down on it's belly ... BUT again .. what are the options ... fight , flight , fight ?? what is the temperament of the dog . what skills has it learned .. slamdunc .. the drive in Sch ... you are correct .. the drive is what we shape it to be .. e.g either fun for the dog .. or the dog's life [percieved that is] is dependent on it !! --------BTW growling is a problem [IMO} ***!!!.. just ask .. " what is the dog trying to say ?'.. i can't say 100% everything transpiring ...  , not fair in not being able to see the dog .. BUT consider this ..
           once i was watching a ROTT being worked on the sleeve ; the handler stated look at the bite , wow he outs well , nice entry ...  SO , then he got very very upset when  I stated " NO he is not doing well !! He is not enjoying the work !"  .. my friend respected me , although mad .. he knew i was not putting his dog down ... so because he trusted me , he listened...  i said . have someone else handle him .. helper up . .. interaction ! I turned and said > look , do you see from this side ..just look at your dog .. yes he is doing but look at him .   you know your dog better than me , right? , does he look like he wants to do that or do you think he is doing that ... because ... he feels he has to ?? .... no i stated !!   this is not good work - your dog is better than that ... and should be worked better than that .. to much to fast !!  and not being worked as an individual !!  SO: NOT EVERYTHING IS AS IT SEEMS TO BE . that is my point ... and without actually seeing you cannot acccurately critique - but hearing there is a growl IMO ..not the way i would have you work the dog ..just my opinion !! ask yourself .. what is it that makes this  dog growl !!

Slamdunc....growls on the sleeve...good barking as soon as helper is in site...a tad defensive:-) again...dog couldn't hit any harder...grips are full, hard and calm...if he is not on the pole...no growling...very hard dog to drive....he trys to control helper...he has just started working with this helper....frontal approach is what helper is doing...he has only worked on 3 different people...

Alpha...dog seems to enjoy himself....loves the work...the whole no place to go scenario seems relevant....he holds very well but is not sleeve happy in the least...I'd say he's more on the man then anything else...thanks for the discussion guys....got me thinking:-)

Hope I didn't confuse anyone...Happy Training!

jud // ok /// but caution .. i don't know who you train with or your goals .. BUT for many sport people ... protection is sport..be careful training from here on in . very careful .. keying the dog on the helper /or more so having the helper , have the dog key on him- has to be done with finesse and with  experoience and knowledge !! !! i frown on this at times ... because , and again not knowing the make-up of your dog and the temperamnet /or the age ... this may very very well translate into your life -especailly if the training is not on a certain frequency , sort to speak .  someday you may have a real problem .. or if the dog gets to brazen [ and that is your business ] I will tell you ... adamantly , this dog will be [ you may think other wise ] beyond average, never never simply be the average household dog ..  once you take a dog gown a path ... i will tell you with certainty , you cannot go back !! if could , if i could that is ,  train someone how to kill , that person now is considered a  killer. my freind once trained a dog like you state , i reprimanded him .. 1 year later , his wife couldn't walk the dog on a leash !! never mind let the kids play with the dog !! be careful how you key a dog on a person .. sure hope your helper knows what the bugger he is doing !! you may come to the realization if not trained in a certain fashion .. you will not be able  to reliably let this dog off a leash !! [ again if that is what you want , your perogative] .

I don't even know how to start on that.

A growl is a counter to the helper just like a stare, a bark or a bite.  I hate the fact that people think just because you say "defense" the dog is fighting for its life.  When two people fight full contact it is recreation for them and they do not fear for thier lives. But, they do take it more seriously than playing monopoly.   
Yeah, a drive is supposed to test a dogs nerve and willingness to stay in the fight.....that is why the thing after an escape bite is called a re "attack".  Everything in the trial is supposed to test the dog..."guarding"......escape "bite".....couage test.......its a test for a warrior....the dogs that cant handle it dont get bred, right?  Oh I forgot this is the "sport" we should breed them to be pretty to.    

The balanced dog you hear about isnt the one that works only in prey.  Yes, you should have an experienced helper that can identify these different drives and take the dog back and forth.

dutss....now that's what I see...He is balanced and has plenty of prey drive but, he is not kidding in protection work. It is not about the sleeve for him...it's about the man. The reference to countering was excellent...again, no growling off the pole...the helper is quite experienced.

Alphapup...the least of my worries is this boy being aggressive outside of this scenario...

thanks guys...