Use of e-collar as a training tool - Page 1

Before I start this thread:  Please, I know there are many views on the use of e-collars at all and many people consider this a "cruel" training tool.  That is not what this thread is about.

If you are a trainer that uses the e-collar, I have a few questions that I am looking for the different points of view and the supporting information.
    Do you consider this a training tool only and once the dog has been trained to the command, the e-collar is no longer used?
                              If so, are you finding that, in general, dogs are more conditioned to the e-collar than the actual command?  In other words, once you take away the collar, does the dog still respond to the command as expected or do you find that the dog hesitates or questions your command more?
                              If not, why?   Again, I am not looking for bashing here, but honest feed back for my learning.
     As a training tool, when do you introduce this?  My thought is this is introduced when you start working on off-leash and only if other methods are not working with the dog.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Due to the tendency for things to be blown much bigger than intended, feel free to PM me your response if you would prefer.

Michael Ellis has done a lot of work with and on E-collars and you can see some of it for free at Leerburg.  He uses the E-collar in normal escape avoidance type training but usually at low levels and in the finishing stages of the dogs sport.  His position is that the E-collar need not be cruel or inhumane if used correctly but some people who favor speed over technique do use them incorrectly and set up a lot of problems in their training by not doing the groundwork for E-collar use.

Also check out Bart Bellon on youtube. If you can go to 1 of his seminars.  I think you will find it very informative. I haven't been able to get my schedule in line to make a seminar in person but it's definitely on my too do list.

Ramsgsd,
Bart Bellon is excellent and I have been to his seminars.  He is definitely a very good seminar to go to. 

Fawn,
There have been many threads on the use of E collars on this forum.  You should use the search function and read them, then get with a trainer that can help you.  Unfortunately, most of the threads on E collar use are filled with myths, misconceptions, and poor information.  Mostly by people that do not understand the tool, the finesse in using the tool or how to properly use an E collar.  I do use an E collar and have for many years.  I have been to many seminars by top bird dog people, top SchH competitors and Police Trainers.  There is a place for the use of E collars by those who take the time to understand them and work with them.  I realize that you are a novice to training dogs and we all have to start somewhere.  As always be very leery of those condemning E collars and their use.  They are precisely the ones that do not understand their function or how to use them.  Be equally leery of those that say "it is a tool of last resort!"  It absolutely is not. 

I'm not getting back into the E collar debate on here as it is purely futile.  Go back and read the old threads and decide for yourself.  I would say that you need to get with an experienced trainer before you ever think about using an E collar.


If you are a trainer that uses the e-collar, I have a few questions that I am looking for the different points of view and the supporting information.

Do you consider this a training tool only and once the dog has been trained to the command, the e-collar is no longer used?

NO, that is not how it is used in dog training. 
If so, are you finding that, in general, dogs are more conditioned to the e-collar than the actual command? In other words, once you take away the collar, does the dog still respond to the command as expected or do you find that the dog hesitates or questions your command more?

The dog should respond to the command and not the correction device.  Corrections are administered when the dog disobeys a command.  No, a properly trained dog that is properly conditioned to the E collar will acknowledge that all corrections, verbal, leash, collar, prong or E collar come from the handler not the device.  Again, properly trained in a motivational way the dog enjoys the commands and is eager to work.  If the dog hesitates that has nothing to do with the leash, collar or E collar but with poor training, poor timing and improper motivation. 


If not, why? Again, I am not looking for bashing here, but honest feed back for my learning.
As a training tool, when do you introduce this? My thought is this is introduced when you start working on off-leash and only if other methods are not working with the dog.

The E collar is introduced on lead for weeks before it is ever used.  It would take way to much time to again go through how to properly condition a dog to the E collar.  Suffice it to say that it is used with the leash and collar simultaneously.  It is not used for off leash work until the dog is perfect on lead and reliable.  In any event, you do not go to off leash until the dog is completely reliable to begin with. 

Well stated Slamdunc.

ditto Itsgsd - Well stated Slamdunc.

The way I was taught.......
E collar is used to amplify the behavior that is already "known" and "proofed". It is used at the lowest setting that the dog can perceive.

For instance, the dog already knows focused heel. It has reliably demonstrated its knowledge many times on leash and off leash but it has started to lag behind at turns, a reward item, a tab or an ecollar can all be used to encourage the dog to keep up.

Of course as Slamdunc stated, the dog must be conditioned to the collar prior to using it.


 

Thank you all.  I do understand.  This information and what I got through pm helps a lot.  

And Fawn just so you know, both my Rotti boy service dog and my GSD service dog wore their E-collars full time unless sleeping and done for the day.  I used a dummy collar on both 2 weeks prior to ever putting on the authentic E-collar itself;  conditioning them how to wear it and to get them used to it.  Although both dogs were totally different in personalities, both wore them very well and proved to be an invaluable tool for me.  Good luck, and I will also add that I did start both dogs prior to their E-collars with an experienced trainer, and for your self as timing needs to be impecible.  Good luck  Nan

PS:  I prefer TriTronics to Dogtra;  much better response time and a stronger collar.  Better distance also.  JMHO.  Nan

I use an e collar with my girl. Mind you, I have only ever had to shock her three or four times and they were what I consider life or death situations. I can teach a dog to sit and stay and heel without this collar, but when it came to chasing my horses I did not have a choice. My thoroughbred was going to kill her and I could see that it was coming. She does not chase the horses anymore. We have a big tractor that she was biting the wheels of and she was going to end up underneath one of them. She no longer chases tractor wheels. I am the most gutless person you will meet, but when it came to Maya's life I didn't have a choice. Every so often I put the collar on her just to remind her of consequences, but I never have to shock her anymore. Just the beep and she smartens up. I never thought I would have a dog where I needed to use one, but I did. I never discuss it with anyone and no one knows I had to use one. But, she is still alive and that is all that counts.

Always try it on yourself first.