If you are not a Control Freak... - Page 3

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Grizz was a phenomenal athlete, extremely intelligent, high energy, as strong as any 10 dogs, playful 24/7 and quick to respect and bond to me, but only me. I think he would have become a wonderful dog, but 3 weeks before he reached his first birthday, he bolted under the left rear wheel of my tractor, requiring me to put him down.  

So now I have a GSD as I begin down the last road in my life's journey on this rock, I like what I see in this pup thus far, and I remain hopeful that he will rise to that "once in a lifetime" status. I don't know if he'll make it to the level that Caesar did, but he has certainly planted his flag in my heart, and I will keep training him and be his leader.... in hopes that he does.
You will like the Monk's books. 
Regards,
Gator & Falco

Control is only illusion when you are an inexperience person who has not got a clue how to raise and work with a working line dog.

I have raised and trained (and titled) working line dogs. And I disagree with you.

If anyone had full control of their dog we would see people getting 300pt schutzhund scores.

i have the dvd - "fighting dominance in a dog whispering world".  it's 2 discs.  disc one is jean donaldson. and disc 2 is ian dunbar.  they each speak for about 1 1/2 hrs and then there is about 45 mins of q&a.  the talks are basically directed at profession trainers but i learned a lot and i am not a pro.

jean covers what we actually know about dominance including the theories and myths.   she talks about  it's unknown origins, the lack of science supporting that theory,  and why despite this lack of science it has such a stranglehold in pop culture. she only briefly touches on the 'milan phenomenon' spending most her time talking about the studies, or lack there of,  and what makes a hypothesis weak or strong.  the last part she talks about how trainers should not waste their time and energy trying to 'convert' people who believe in the dominance theory/milan method but instead they should have fun helping those who want to learn a different way to train dogs.

ian talks about a practical approach to getting the word out on alternative methods of training and how to get solid results.  he also lays out how to set up studies within a training class to back up and validate the lure reward method.  he addresses some of the misunderstanding like how long to actually use food - basically only long enough to get the dog to attach the word with the action then phase it out; usually done between 1 and 3 days. he spends little time discussion milan - he does say it is not training but rather management - and a lot of time talking about what he and others are doing to get info to people like his website, new tv shows that are in the works ...

i enjoyed listening to both and the q&a was interesting and really showed how much the same and how different jean & ian are from each other.  i bought it maybe a year ago, i can't remember. i watched it at that time and again today and liked it equally both times but then again i like learning and find this kind of thing very entertaining   - hth

"If anyone had full control of their dog we would see people getting 300pt schutzhund scores"

sure if you trial under the right judge all the time.  some like pretty happy dogs, and others like power and intensity. 

control is not the same as correct and to me schutzhund is both.

john

the fact that this question was raised implies that it is understood what it takes "FOR SOME PEOPLE" to raise working line dogs. It also implies that introspection has been done and fully aware what the Master "CONTROLLER" brings on the table for the dog/handler team

regards & Thanks so much for the group energy this is really fruitful to read varied opinions and outlooks.

dogs and handlers are being judged by other humans so called judges and no human is gonna give another human perfect score and any one with half brain knows there is no such thin as perfect and getting 300 points would be a perfect score. have a nice one.

Do you believe that people have full control of thier dogs and the only reason they fail to get 300pts is because the judge's human failings? If there is "no such thing as perfect" how can one ever have perfect control?

BTW, It's not true that "no human is gonna give another person a perfect score" it has been done.

I have a very nice one. Thank you.

Vikram if u understand that master trainers know how to have a control on a dog then that should tell you that there is no need for your question. just spend time on learning from these masters and not waste time asking useless questions.

Chris no one is talking abut perfect control go and read my comment but on the other hand u said people be getting 300 points and perfect and then you go on tosay it has been done. u r confused which one is it.have a nice one.

Interesting question, Vikram, and obviously one that causes people to really think about their own core values in training.  I think Christopher  and justcurious makes some good points.   I have had dogs that were devoted to me, with a vry . very strong bond.  But...Lord knows I did not have full control.  Anyone who has been at a trial I was in can tell you that!   Strong dogs, excellent drives, but the lack of control always cost us on the trial field.   I simply do not have it in me to take the steps that some consider appropriate to have that type of control.   Perhaps my dogs do not respect me as much as they might as a result.  But, the bond is certainly more than a lot of the "masters" would have with the same dogs, or, in some cases, even their own dogs.   it is a tough decision to make for some.  I think, in some cases, it comes down to human ego.      Would I like to obtain a perfect or near perfect score with a dog that is deemed capable of 100 point performances in each schutzhund phase.  Of course!    Am I willing to develope the type of control necessary to achieve that?  Apparently not.    So be it.  Schutzhund is a humbling sport and I have learned that failure isn't fatal.  Besides, the quality of the dog comes through, anyway.    I guess that is enough for my little ego...