Stud dog producing reproductive/health issues? - Page 1

There is a stud dog in N America many breeders are considering using (I'll call him DogX). I purchased 2 DogX daughters, both just over a year old (imported from Germany). The first one had problems with excessive progesterone production causing her to arrive from Germany with pyometra (excessive progesterone is known to predispose to pyometra). I saved her from being spayed, but had to breed her next heat cycle to save her uterus. The resultant pups had numerous problems, including: no testicles on any of the 3 males and there were 3 pups that developed exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (EPI) at just over a year old. Both of these conditions are genetic. Since they might have been attributed to the dam's side of the pedigree, I purchased another DogX daughter (different dam). This new female has now been bred 3 times and has never conceived. My vet tells me if she comes from a litter where there are cryptorchid males, some of the females in the litter can be affected as well. In the females, it manifests as reproductive problems and may be caused by formation of some testicular tissue near the ovaries. This condition is also genetic in origin. Inquiries to Germany regarding these problems with DogX have gone unanswered. I forgot to mention, there were also problems with mega-esophagus and a cleft pallate in the litter mentioned above. I know of another breeder here in the US who had a litter sired by DogX where there were cryptorchid pups and very late descending testicles. That litter also had one pup euthanized at about 10 weeks old due to severe mega-esophagus. Time will tell if any of them develop EPI, but they are too young at the moment. I no longer think the problems with my females are due to the dam's side of the pedigree, but rather stem from DogX. I am posting this as a personal experience with DogX offspring and would be happy to share the bloodlines of the dogs (sire and dam) involved should anyone care to know. I am gathering data on the prevalence of these problems among these bloodlines, so if anyone has had similar problems, please e-mail me the information about the pedigree and the specific problems. It would help the breed if we could trace the origins of these health issues and try to eliminate them from the gene pool. I will share the data I collect with those who contribute, and others if a pattern arises. I have had no cooperation from the former owner or breeder of the stud dog in question. Therefore, I have decided the best way to help other breeders avoid these problems is to post this message, and then take the females I mention above to the USCA Sieger Show so everyone can see them and observe the problems first hand. It's wonderful to parade one's successes around a show ring, but if problems in our bloodlines are hidden from public view, they will persist. Breeders need to know both the good and bad production data, especially where popular stud dogs are concerned. It is possible (but unlikely) that I was just unlucky enough to have 2 females from the same sire with reproductive problems. If that turns out to be true and this was random bad luck, I will post a message to that effect when I have data to support it. Please send any info regarding his matter to me via e-mail to: dianejseaman@nctc.com

hi Diane, you are not alone, there are breeders who are afraid to step up because they dont want the stud dog owners to be upset or they feel maybe its their bitch responsible. with EPI it does take two so your female is a carrier of this... and know this and next time ask the stud dog if they ever had a problem with EPI litter, perhaps you may want to keep your bitch out of the gene pool, you dont want her to pass this gene to her progeny... its hard to not breed a female that you feel can be such a contribution, but you must be strong. have had to make a decision about one of my males and was the best decision as i didnt want to contribute to more bad elbows in the world. was there a contract with the stud dog? do you have this in writing? you seem to want to be fair by disclosing only to those who also have bred to this dog.. however, what about those who are considering breeding to the dog? how will they learn if this indeed is a problem the stud dog responsible for. its such a fine line because you really have to be careful about disclosing information publicly that could ruin a dogs stud career for ever, and it might be for no reason.. OR you can also help to prevent this happening to a whole slew of litters and save the breed heartache. Try the stud dog owner again, send a registered letter stating your intentions should they not stand by their dog. Give them the opportunity to make it right. If they do not wish to stand tall, then i guess you may feel you have no alternative. I dont envy you at all, such a hard decision, but you have the dogs health in mind, and these dogs are innocent and can only rely on us humans to try to keep them free of genetic problems. Good Luck Dawnmarie

Hi Dawnmarie, Thank you for your response. I guess my post wasn't clear enough. I am aware both sire and dam contribute to EPI and that my dam was a carrier. My question is, where did SHE get it from? Either her sire or dam must also have been a carrier, and I suspect it was her sire since the other female I have from the same sire also has problems, and another litter he sired produced mega-esophagus, etc. I did not breed that female after she had her litter. I consider both of my females a total loss and don't want others to go through the same experience, nor perpetuate such problems in the breed. Only by gathering data can we hope to trace the origin of these health issues (and thus learn how to avoid them), and I am willing to collect and compile any data I receive. If it turns out the two females I owned were the only ones with these problems, I will post that information so people will know there was no connection to the sire. If, however, others have had the same problems in offspring from DogX, people should be aware the problem exists in those lines so they can do their best to avoid similar problems. The sire of my EPI litter is not being bred, so there is no problem from that side at all. Again, the question is, where in my DAM'S pedigree did this come from? Thanks for helping me clarify things.

The former owner of the dog in Germany, given that he is a major top dog in Germany, sold the dog for a great deal of money. In the six figure plus range. They are very unlikely to respond to claims of genetic problems in the progeny.

i haven't solved the mystery... can i have a clue?

Diane. THANK YOU!!!! You must have written the book on Courage, Morals, Willingness to help others & Dog Care, care, as in LOVE of dogs!!! You're a rare gem!!

It will be very interesting to see how this dog's offspring turn out in North America. However, if there are cryptorchids, EPI, other reproductive problems, cleft palates, mega-esophagus,etc., I expect it will be kept very quiet, and only those closest to the new owners will ever know. There is too much money involved. And that is the sad truth about breeding show dogs both in North America and in Germany. If an exceptional dog wins many big ones and brings much prestige to his owners, who cares about a few problems in the offspring(or in the siblings for that matter). Get rid of them with non-breeding agreements and say nothing!

so this dog was sold to a breeder here in the states from Germany? its so scary because we want to trust the motherland... maybe they didnt know.. who knows but a wise old timer in GSD, who used to import many of the top dogs in the fifties.. said to me... "There was a this dog fight in Germany, the strongest one wins... the other is sold to the United States" lol cute humour

Unfortunately I have seen too often breeders turning a blind eye to problems in offspring or siblings when a dog produces a few expceptional offspring. This also can be a result of linebreeding or inbreeding depending on how close. You bring out both the bad and the good. Sometimes the very bad in the same litter as one exceptional individual that goes on to be a great contender and a fabulous dog. I personally have witnessed this. A few very exceptional progeny and many skeletons in the closet! I believe this is why we cannot get HD out of the breed. A few years back, I personally got a puppy from a local breeder from parents who were both imported from Germany, SchH titled and KKl 1, had grade 3 hip dysplasia by 8 months of age. He basically had no hips. He was in a lot of pain and I put him down. Very painful. The same litter produced a very well known champion, SchH 3 titled dog with good hips and a fine example of the breed. The same litter also produced a long hair and a cryptorchid. However, the boy went on to become a well known sire. How can we ever hope to eliminate these problems when breeders operate in a blindfolded world where money and prestige are the goal? The temptation is too great. If you have a wonderful dog, why not offer him as a breed improvement, whatever came along with him when he was born? There is always a way to rationalize both to yourself and to others who may discover your dark secret.

Wow, I have read this entire post and still have no clue as to what lines may be involved. Can anyone shed any lite on what lines MAY be involved?