Schutzhund AND Patrol??? - Page 2

melba,
What exactly is your question?  Is there a chance your husband can use this dog as a Patrol K-9?  What are the chances he gets to work a K-9 on the street?  Does this dog have what it takes to be a Patrol dog?  Doing SchH is fairly easy compared to going through a patrol school and actually working on the street. 

There are some advantages to starting a dog in SchH.  The control work and OB are advantageous.  I train tracking for SchH dogs and Police K-9's differently.  A foundation in SchH tracking can be  beneficial, depending how the SO or PD trains tracking.  Given a green Police dog I would not foot step track on grass to start training the dog, I would go directly to asphalt and start there not on grass.  There are also some drawbacks to a dog started in SchH.  Does their dept do a "Hold and Bark" or a "find and bite?'  Sleeve work especially in foundation training needs to be worked on.  Too much sleeve work is a problem and can have dangerous repercussions  on the street.  I'm not sure where you live or where your husband works, but generally, working a Patrol K-9 is a  very dangerous job.  The dog has to be prepared to engage a subject at a moments notice and too much SchH work can cause a delay or the dog to pause to consider what is the appropriate action.  Can this be done? Surely it can be done with an excellent dog and an excellent handler.  Guys like Mike Diehl, Bob Frampton. Pete Mcginn, Greg Monimee, and Bernhard Flinks have been very successful.  But these are guys with exceptional dogs and exceptional training. I do not do SchH with my dog anymore for several reasons, he could certainly do it. I train tracking differently for Police K-9's and it is scent specific, scent discrimination and primarily hard surface trailing.  I would lose lots of points in a SchH trial, but I track bad guys threw city streets and catch them.  That is lots of fun.   If you understand the differences and needs of each type of dog and how to train them you may be successful. 

Thank you Slamdunc.

The chance that he will actually use the dog as a patrol dog is very very small. The dog does have what it takes to do patrol. That is not
coming from a novice, but from someone who has selected many dogs for patrol. I'm pretty picky when it comes to K9 selection. The
dept. does a find and bite I believe. No dept. around here does a bark and hold.

I'm not sure what my questions should be to get the answers I need to make an appropriate decision. My main concerns are 1. The tracking,
obviously as you stated is much different. Methodical footstep tracking vs. find by any means necessary. I have a man trailing/ tracking dog
that is very very good (the dog in question's mother) and tried foot step tracking. It was impossible to get her head down on the track, though
she was following exactly where I had been. He has been started on foot step tracking and I don't want to lose what I already have.

He has taken a dog through K9 school and ready to certify, but when it came down to it, his dept at the time would not back him. Politics
unfortunately.

I see enough differences to be worried about what the K9 training will do to my Sch work, not so much in obedience but in tracking, and to
an extent protection. Another concern is HOW the dept. trains. I don't know them or their methods. That is not something you can give me
an answer to.

I guess what I want to know, is if he uses different commands, should the dog be able to differentiate between the work that they do together and
the work that we do together enough for neither to be affected adversely by the different training. I don't want their training to interfere with
what I'm doing, but I want him to be able to dabble in K9 when the opportunity arises. It's what he loves and what he's been trying for for many
years.

I don't want to raise/buy another dog right now. He works 2-2-3 straight 3rd shift and I would be the one with the doggie responsibility, but if
he could take one we already have to training occasionally and the training not affect what I'm trying to accomplish, then I'd be all in. I just
see too many differences and have reservations.

Melba,
If your main concern is the training aspect, I would go and watch their training.  The bite work will have some significant differences.  In SchH we spend a lot of time on developing good, full, hard, calm grips.  This is very important for a sport dog to achieve high points.  Most of that is genetic, but the quality of the grip can be enhanced through good training.  For a Police K-9 full grips are not as important, and training time is not always spent on developing good grips or fixing bite problems.  Your sport dog's grip may suffer depending on how they train and how well your husband can recognize and correct the issues.  Your husband could always train primarily with a decoy and a sleeve, which would hinder the patrol aspect.   The other issue is finding K-9 guys with decent decoy skills at catching dogs.  K-9 guys work and decoy differently than sport helpers. 

Your dog at the K-9 training will / should do a lot of suit work and be taught leg and chest bites.  These skills are critical for a Patrol dog.  The dog would also be exposed to muzzle work and should learn to focus on the man and ignore the equipment.  The dog will be pushed into defense more and this could also have an impact on his sport bite work. 

He could continue to do the footstep tracking if the K-9 training is only an occasional thing.  Otherwise, I would have two completely separate rituals for tracking.  Different equipment like a harness, different commands and a completely different starting rituals. 

The biggest issue may be having two handlers in separate disciplines.  GSDfan, does different types of training with her dogs and does them all well.  I would think your biggest obstacle may be the continuity in training.  This would be easier with one handler controlling the training in both venues. 

You can teach a H&B for sport, but I would also train a bite command like "packen."  The commands have to be consistent between both of you.  Bite work is bite work; and you do not want to confuse the dog.  There is a guarding phase after the out in a K-9 certification where your H&B training will be beneficial.  But a K-9 needs to engage a passive subject when commanded and the sport work is a hindrance there.  Teaching a clear "packen" command will help with this and I would use it in your sport work as well. 

To answer your question, I would use different commands for tracking.  I would be consistent in the commands in the bite work, but have some new commands for the Police work.  I would try to keep the OB and Bite work training very consistent.  You may need to modify some of your training and see which commands will work best.  One of your biggest issues may be the TD at your club and the K-9 trainer doing things differently.  One of the best things your husband can do, which he may already is really getting into decoying at both.  The Police guys will really appreciate some one coming down and volunteering to jump into the suit.  He will get a good perspective on both styles and be able to get some good insight into working your dog in both. 
 

Thank you Jim,
That was just the kind of info I was looking for :)

Melissa

I have done it with 4 dogs in a 12 yr period and also competed on the National and World level in DPO/WPO  ....... To sum it all up in short style it takes a dog with the correct disposition-temperament and takes a handler with the correct knowledge to bounce back and forth between the sport and street. Back in the day I was told it could not be done .... BUT I had huge success on both sport and the street. Regards ............. Greg