Philosophy of targeting. - Page 1

 My question is to helpers and trainers. Just a question. If you train the dog to stay on the ground and come up to the sleeve just in front of the helper not 10 paces before and launching and if you teach the dog to target the mans body more then the sleeve doesn't your dog  stand a better chance of getting the sleeve and less chance of a missed grip? I have my dogs tracking the helpers movement and they will cut off a side stepper but seldom if ever miss a sleeve. I have had some complaints because the dog will cut a helper off if they side step early but that is my preference. There is in my opinion no gain to a dog that launch,s far in front  of the helper other to show boat because once there paws leave the ground there at the helpers(or bad guys)  mercy?.  

Dogs that get "juked" or are caused to miss a target in training will often target "center mass" to avoid missing in the future.  When decoying for our Police K-9's I will try to "juke" the dog to cause a miss.  This causes the dog to actually hit harder on it's second attempt.  As a decoy you have to be careful doing this too often, as the dog learns he will always target the center of the body and the likely hood of a jam increases.  Occasionally, a side step or feint is good to do to increase intensity and teach the dog how to readjust from a missed target.  For SchH sport dogs I would not do this.  If I need to side step to safely catch a fast dog the sleeve is presented well in advance giving the dog a clear target.  While my body may pivot to the side I try to keep the sleeve in the same position.  With Sport dogs occasionally, I will offer a poor sleeve presentation on an escape bite to teach the dog to target and grip the sleeve regardless of the orientation or presentation of the sleeve.  I will do this in training as well with a back tied dog.  This helps with targeting and re gripping.  

Most dogs will cut off a side stepping helper as a straight line is the shortest distance to the decoy.  If the decoy sidesteps to the right the the dog will angle to that side to cut him off.  This is where helpers sometimes jam dogs trying to side step to catch them safely and why up hit in the chest.  

JMO FWIW

Good afternoon Bob. To me if the dog is coming in hard and fast I don't care if they leave their feet closer or farther away from the helper. I'm not a big fan of the dog slowing down in front of the helper before the bite. As mentioned earlier the launcher does make a nicer picture. Although the long bite of Yogy Policia Slovokia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bsJbvQojSk  was a sight to behold and the best of the entire trial.  He won the helpers choice trophy as well. And as a rule most real "bad guys" aren't going to be running to meet your dog head on. So it doesn't really matter in a real life situation. But you are correct a dog that comes in much closer is going to be able to hit the sleeve no matter if the helper turns early or not. If your helper is complaining about the dog cutting him off when he side steps early, tell him he shouldn't be side stepping at all. The helper is supposed to go straight through the dog with the sleeve up in front of his chest. With enough room between to allow for absorption of the contact and allow the dogs momentum to turn him on his pivot foot. The proverbial "PERFECT CATCH." Now the WAY you say it to him is going to depend on if the club helper is the club owner and if he has a slight ego problem or not. If he is you may what to phrase it in a question form. Like.. Isn't the helper supposed too.......... That is if you want to continue being a member of that club.
 

Thanks guys:

                           Actually my heplers that are used to them don,t have the problem it,s the occassional helper that havent worked them that can get a little excited. There just seems to be as of late a big discussion on the PDB about bad grips and such. I,ve never liked my dogs to focus on the sleeve I prefer the thought that the sleeve is only a path to the man. It seems we see more and more side stepping in catch,s what ever happened to going thru the dog? I still do the old stlye turn on my dogs because I like the response I see from them. I also like to have the helper come at the dog in a long bite with the sleeve hidden until the last moment and then present it, it,s hard to do when the dog moves fast and stays on the ground but i find it keeps there focus on the man but you need a good helper,it,s not for everyone but it,s what I like. 

For me, catching a dog that is very fast and launches is a dream.  Like batting practice and you can just keep stroking the ball out of the park swing after swing.  I don't need to juke to get them to gather before a bite, it's a sport, I want them to compete with flash.  it's what it is.  I'll never be sending my dog after anybody ever in real life so what do I care.  

From a handlers perspective, a dog that will cut you off and gather a bit before the bite will go the furthest in ensuring he gets a good bite from most helpers if they side step, but they have to slow some otherwise it's just more dangerous for the dog.  A helper that sidesteps too soon and the dog cuts him off coming full speed, well if the helper isn't athletic it could be bad news for the dog.  

There is no perfect way, they all have their drawbacks

I will add that IME, a sleeve presented earlier will cause dogs to launch because they have a clear target.  As mentioned by Hired Dog, "launching" is partly genetic and partly training, but there is a genetic base to it.  A helper that holds the sleeve at his side until the last minute will cause most dogs to "gather."  If the dog does not have a clear target until just feet from the decoy will "gather" to adjust to the target.  The same dog given a clear presentation earlier will often launch at the sleeve.  Now, some dogs just slow down and gather regardless.  This can also be genetic, look at the US Sieger Show videos to see examples of dogs gathering before the bite even with excellent and clear presentation.  This can also happen to good dogs that have been jammed by poor helpers time and time again.   

I don,t think there are any perfect catch,s just good and safe that,s what I like to see. Does anyone else do the old style run,turn and catch with there dogs? I was surprised the first time we did it with my male Cruise when the helper turned on him he sped up I don,t think the helper expected that reaction. I want to get some video,s this weekend and post them.  

I love the old style courage test. A strong helper, meaning a helper with a lot of presence to the dog, can really show you what your dog is about. Particularly the first time the dog has this happen to him.

we always train dogs to come wright true the middle and helper decides when to jump, every dog can be teached to jump if they have a certain natural speed.
teaching your dog not to jump but staying low until the last moment can be dangerous for the helper as well for the dog it wouldn't be the first dog that breaks his chestbone on a helpers knee.
i completly understand the problem of helpers stepping sideways these day's just as "scooping" up dog's it's a big fault.
it's up to judges to speak up to helpers who do, if people start to train dog's to stay low,don't jump dog's will eventually teach themselves to slow down some from the start some in front of the helper
also by trainning this way you give these helpers a reason to keep doeing these things even more
nothing comes easier than a fast dog true the middle that launches himself, if you as a helper keep your center line not stepping sideways!!!
dominant dog's won't let the helper pusch them to either side before they are "airbourne"
if you keep your line as a helper even whit these dog's you can go left or right
i had already lots of discussions here in belgium and some people (judges) say dog's are getting faster.....BULLSHIT!!! stoned,turcodos etc they came bloody fast knocking down several helpers who stept sideway's to early because they wouldn't "follow" helpers directions to a side"
these day's to many dogs let them be guided to a side by the helper, we have a new "long attack bomb" here but he's still in trainning (not an easy guy to conduct or as a helper)
extremly fast,38kg(also a big diffrence compared to many others these day's), launching 4meters and never let the helper pusch him to one side not even on the last meters of his approch
until today he knocked down several sidestepping helpers not only in long attack but also in backtransport ( always getting the comment it's the dogs fault from these helpers!!!) dog doesn't mind getting away whit the sleeve every time 
other old school helpers comments were finaly an old style dog in ipo
one option i propposed here was to draw 2lines on the field one meter inbetween were helpers schould stay in long attack, and when they step out award full points to the dog like in mondio or belgian ring were judges give advantage to the dog if in dougbt about something the helper did
in these sports people are much more "forgiving" towards helpers mistakes than in ipo and most helpers don't have problems admitting to their mistakes when something has happend helpers are humans and it's impossible to be complety perfect every time
it doesn't matter when you run up to a dog sleeve already presented or putting it up at the last moment (as a helper i prefer the last) but once presented it schoud stay and certainly not drop!!!
second, helpers schould keep their line only a small sidestep when the dog comes of the ground
dropping the sleeve "scooping" is for me the biggest problem, this way you teach the dog not to come of the ground and by staying low you force helpers to step sideway's to avoid injury on themselves and the dog
helperwork changed completly last 10 years in the past backtransport/courage test was the sleeve up, in defence/stickhits it was low on the dog, these days it's opposite longattacks whit sleeves on the hips and defence stickhits whit sleeve elbows pointing towards the sky to make sure dogs cannot fight
yes today's helperwork is easier for the helper but it doesn't benifit the dogs only lesser easier goeing dogs benefit from it exactly the opposite of what ipo intended to be, a test but those day's are long gone i'm afraid
and then they wonder why the hardness of the dog's is slipping each generation more and more
so bob yes you are correct if you train your dog like you do you have less change of loosing points but you increase the chance on injury and the sidestepping/scooping of helpers
for me better training of dogs to really come get the sleeve from the helper, and trainning of helpers to "old school" helperwork is a better way unfortunatly i wonder if it's realistic but here in several clubs we try anyway