Too much drive/cross training - Page 1

I have been torn as of late between PSA and Schutzhund. My aversion to Schutzhund is tracking along with the thought that my personal protection dog would not be able to work in real life situations if trained in Schutzhund. I have since been shown that is not a concern for us with regard to protection. However, I still have the tracking thing, but I could get over that. I personally like the control and obedience that Schutzhund has and the excitement of PSA. However, I believe that if I have strong obedience, like Schutzhund hand in hand with my "overdrive" dog, there is not much we can't accomplish. So, my question to the group is this, is there such a thing as a dog with too much drive for Schutzhund? I know what my answer is and it is no. You do however, have to have control/capping of that drive, but no such thing as too much drive. Thoughts?

I personally don't like the extreme prey drive dogs sometimes used in Schutzhund/IPO.  I much prefer a dog with balanced drives or with several types of drive Prey/Fight/Play/Competition/Food/Defense (make up your own list as there are many drives).  Prey is a good place to start but too much prey can become a dead end or at least a problem in protection competitions which require real biting.  I like a dog that will "fight with fury" when necessary but still has control over his head.  I have both males and females that can "fight with fury" but I also have some females that are pretty much prey monsters.  I also think that some dogs get so happy in prey that if not introduced to fight drive early enough will be difficult to trigger and keep in fight drive.  Most puppies are born with the instinct for fight drive but we sometimes make prey such a fun game that they never become proficient in fight and instead go to defense when provoked.

Thanks! Not sure I agree with the several types of drive, I personally think they fall into two categories Prey/Defense. Under Prey is where play and food would fall with Prey being the total umbrella if you will. Then there is Defense which is where fight and competition would fall with again, Defense being the total umbrella. JMO - lol!! I have been blessed with an amazing dog who I have decided to do Schutzhund with after a lot of back and forth. Later we can still to PSA and it won't be a difficult transition for her since she will bite sleeve, bitesuit and bite for real. She has been tested in all of these areas and the only thing we need is focus, and in some places the capping of drive. I am so very excited about the possibilities!!!!!!

Eve,
To answer your question:  is there such a thing as a dog with too much drive for Schutzhund?  No, not as long as the dog has the nerves to be able to handle all that drive.  Personally, I like high prey drive dogs and I like dogs that are high in defense.  The dogs I like are not for everyone.  I also like a dog with serious aggression for my job, but will absolutely enjoy a higher prey drive dog for sport coupled with excellent nerves.  

There are certainly more drives than prey and defense and to classify dogs into those two categories is very simplistic.  I know some people when discussing drives will get into the 16 different drives of dogs, which IMO is over complicated.  But, just two categories is not really sufficient when discussing the overall drives of a dog and understanding why or how to explain behavior or motivate a dog.  Defense is really not the "total umbrella." 

JMO FWIW
 

mike diehl seems to have worked out a balance in real work & sport.  one of the few who can train
dogs for both sport & service work. :)
pjp

****just sayin'......it can be done.
 

Eve and I are going to be up in Mike Diehl's neck of the woods at the end of June first part of July for a breeding. I am so excited. However, we are doing our first Schutzhund trial the 1 and 2 of June. In a week or two I will post some videos of my girl working and if you don't care, you can offer some opinions. I am not easily offended because I realize that when you ask for opinions, that is what you get, someone opinions! So please don't think I will be offended. It is really nice to be around people who are excited about possibilities, not doubting them! Thanks!!! Oh, been told that I have a dog that is not for everyone, and believe me she is teaching me an awful lot not just about her but about myself! Lord help up all - lol!!!!

suggest that you pay mike a visit (by appointment) and have him give you some pointers on how you can get the
best out of your dog.  good luck :)
pjp

Mike Diehl is an excellent trainer and handler.  There are several people over the years that have done SchH and Patrol work with their dogs.  Bernhard Flinks competed with his Police Dog and he is another excellent handler and trainer.  There are a lot of top sport dogs that would not do well as Patrol dogs and a lot of great Patrol dogs that would not do well as sport dogs.  It is as much about having the "right" dog and right handler to do both.  Genetics play a very big part in having a dog excel at both.  We have two GSD's in our unit that are exceptional Patrol dogs and could easily be National level SchH dogs.  Unfortunately, we are not allowed to compete with our dogs.

Every dog comes...thru Nature...with a set of Drives...They develop or don't...I think it's up to us the trainers to develop these to the best ability of the individual dog...I think so many don't take the time to bring the best out of our dogs...Not to just label a dog as a Prey or Defense Monster...but to BALANCE them...We as trainers should always try to BALANCE our dog's drive to have the best dog we can...
Whether or not we use all these drives in our application is up to us...But a BALANCED dog is a Great Dog...

I think and I use methods of training that will bring out the best possible...This mean to use Personal Protection methods for my dogs that are used for Schutzhund...I feel it makes them a better dog and makes them think of the Schutzhund routines as being more real and will enjoy the Fight...
I think a dog even used for Sport should have a "Real World" view of what they're doing...Although I do Schutzhund I don't like a dog that just thinks of it as a Game...Now I know you're going to say that it is a game...and this is true that it's all started as a game but as the dog matures you can teach them to be playing a Serious Game...

~Bob~

Eve's genetics play a huge role in who she is. She is on here as Eve Von Mountainlake. One of my reservations of Schutzhund was the fact that I purchased her as a personal protection dog. She is definitely that. However, in order to keep her sharp and to help expend some of that endless energy, we needed something to do. Hence, dog sports! I was worried that if she did Schutzhund she would not react if I was ever attacked because the aggressor did not have on a sleeve or a bite suit. Have seen that before. I now don't have any worries about that happening with her. As her breeder stated long ago, not much to do with her, but good strong obedience and the rest is genetics. He was correct and I don't think you can get any strong obedience than Schutzhund. Statement disclaimer: These are just my limited educated opinion - but I am getting more and more educated everyday - lol!!!!