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by brynjulf on 05 January 2012 - 15:01
I dont train with food and am very curious as to the weaning off faze of the Platz. I understand luring the puppy into the position but i dont understand the transition to a "stay in the down". I use the old school foot on the leash, pat the ground method so there is no in between lesson to learn. Platz means lay down and stay there. But with what I have seen with the food lure. The pup goes down, is given a reward for laying down then given a few more kibbles then pops back up. I am alway learning new things so this is baffling me :) Can someone clarify this for me. Thank you.
by melba on 05 January 2012 - 17:01
On a puppy, the time it's expected to stay down is minimal, as I'm sure you know.
This is just what I do: Lure pup down w/ food. Repeat until pup hits the ground fast. Now switch the food to the other hand and still lure with the food hand. Toss
food from one hand to the next and pop in pups mouth (the reason behind this is the food is still close and the puppy has to wait a few seconds before being
rewarded. Now stand up and ask platz. If puppy understands what you are asking, he should go down. Bend down and reward. Usually after the puppy starts going
down while you are standing up, I'll wait a second, reward, stand up, reward repeat. The longer the puppy stays down, the more food he'll get. They understand pretty
quick that staying down there gets them the reward.
Now, to transition, Once the puppy understands and goes down and stays down, instead of a treat, I'll toss his fav. toy right inbetween his front legs (giving the ok to
get up first) rinse, repeat varying the length of time he is asked to stay down.
Hope that all makes sense. It's easier for me to demonstrate then describe.
Melissa
This is just what I do: Lure pup down w/ food. Repeat until pup hits the ground fast. Now switch the food to the other hand and still lure with the food hand. Toss
food from one hand to the next and pop in pups mouth (the reason behind this is the food is still close and the puppy has to wait a few seconds before being
rewarded. Now stand up and ask platz. If puppy understands what you are asking, he should go down. Bend down and reward. Usually after the puppy starts going
down while you are standing up, I'll wait a second, reward, stand up, reward repeat. The longer the puppy stays down, the more food he'll get. They understand pretty
quick that staying down there gets them the reward.
Now, to transition, Once the puppy understands and goes down and stays down, instead of a treat, I'll toss his fav. toy right inbetween his front legs (giving the ok to
get up first) rinse, repeat varying the length of time he is asked to stay down.
Hope that all makes sense. It's easier for me to demonstrate then describe.
Melissa
by Two Moons on 05 January 2012 - 18:01
How old is the dog you are training?
You say old school explain.
You say old school explain.
by brynjulf on 05 January 2012 - 18:01
Hey guys, not trying to train any dog using food at the moment, i am not clear enough on the concept. I was watching an obedience class. I like to watch other methods other than how I train so I go to a variety of different classes to watch other trainers ( In the hopes that I will learn something new) I just couldnt figure out the point of luring to a down and then not really having a down. Melba's explaination was very good!.
Old school training is very different than current methods. Old school is the use ofcompulsion dog training ( I have heard of it called punishment based training but don't see it that way at all) in the teaching phase rather than lure or motivation to teach a dog. I use a mix of the two for training but have always used compulsion for the platz. Pressure on the leash in a downward motion and then stand on the lead until I am ready for a Sitz command. ( teaching phase only ) I don't use the word "stay" at any time.
You have to remember us old timers trained dogs with a leash and training collar only. Everything was trained using voice only. No treats, tug toys etc. In the past 10 years I have been using tugs and balls on a rope but have never dabbled in "food". For puppy imprinting it looks super super easy.
Sooo apparently you can teach old dogs new tricks :)
Old school training is very different than current methods. Old school is the use ofcompulsion dog training ( I have heard of it called punishment based training but don't see it that way at all) in the teaching phase rather than lure or motivation to teach a dog. I use a mix of the two for training but have always used compulsion for the platz. Pressure on the leash in a downward motion and then stand on the lead until I am ready for a Sitz command. ( teaching phase only ) I don't use the word "stay" at any time.
You have to remember us old timers trained dogs with a leash and training collar only. Everything was trained using voice only. No treats, tug toys etc. In the past 10 years I have been using tugs and balls on a rope but have never dabbled in "food". For puppy imprinting it looks super super easy.
Sooo apparently you can teach old dogs new tricks :)
by Ace952 on 05 January 2012 - 18:01
I use food to teach the commands.
I then use the toy (tug) to bring the speed. Tug isn't introduced until they "know" the command. When I say, "know" I mean I can be 20 or 40 feet away and if I say "sit" wherever they are, they sit.
I know what you mean about the foot on the leash. I wouldn't call it compulsion but rather negative reinforcement. You tell the dog "down and he goes down. Then foot on the leash count to 3 then "tes" and then reward. In between the time from 1-3 use a bridge word like "good" or "good platz".
The luring just lets the dog do it on its own rather than being forced to do it. I would use the luring firsta nd teach the down to where it is solid and then use the leash and foot on it to teach the stay.
Don't try a long down to start off but rather build up to it.the lenght of time it takes depends on how fast the dog learns and can handle the build up process from 1 second to 30 seconds to 1 minute (of course intervals in between).
Great example by Melba.
I am a total noob so I could be wrong and let others with more experience and knowledge chime in.
I then use the toy (tug) to bring the speed. Tug isn't introduced until they "know" the command. When I say, "know" I mean I can be 20 or 40 feet away and if I say "sit" wherever they are, they sit.
I know what you mean about the foot on the leash. I wouldn't call it compulsion but rather negative reinforcement. You tell the dog "down and he goes down. Then foot on the leash count to 3 then "tes" and then reward. In between the time from 1-3 use a bridge word like "good" or "good platz".
The luring just lets the dog do it on its own rather than being forced to do it. I would use the luring firsta nd teach the down to where it is solid and then use the leash and foot on it to teach the stay.
Don't try a long down to start off but rather build up to it.the lenght of time it takes depends on how fast the dog learns and can handle the build up process from 1 second to 30 seconds to 1 minute (of course intervals in between).
Great example by Melba.
I am a total noob so I could be wrong and let others with more experience and knowledge chime in.
by Cykodog on 06 January 2012 - 00:01
You start by teaching the dog that to get what he wants, he has to do what you say. Marker training. The pup can bounce around acting stupid, but he only gets the reward when I say "yes" - and to earn that "yes" he has to pay attention to me and figure out the rules of what I am wanting him to do.
Example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnlKuMB_3Q 5 month (very drivey) mali pup, maybe 3rd formal ob session, second time of teaching the down, so I am still heavily cueing for the down. He is old enough to focus, knows the marker game very well, and he knows the words for "sit" and "down". The "stay" is implied, currently the mark "yes" is also the release. We're starting on duration and distraction. I set it up so that he doesn't make many mistakes.
At this point, he would lose his little mind over a toy and wouldn't be able to learn anything, so we're using food. I am training him in drive and teaching him to switch, stop/go/stop, and focus, so that when he is ready for a toy reward, the transition goes smoother. Compulsion to proof this and get it really solid can come later... again, when needed.
It is your job as a trainer to read your dog, bring him up or down as needed, and insure that he learns to do the right thing at the right time, minimising mistakes. Whatever method you use has to be adapted to the dog to get the correct end result, whatever that may be.
Example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfnlKuMB_3Q 5 month (very drivey) mali pup, maybe 3rd formal ob session, second time of teaching the down, so I am still heavily cueing for the down. He is old enough to focus, knows the marker game very well, and he knows the words for "sit" and "down". The "stay" is implied, currently the mark "yes" is also the release. We're starting on duration and distraction. I set it up so that he doesn't make many mistakes.
At this point, he would lose his little mind over a toy and wouldn't be able to learn anything, so we're using food. I am training him in drive and teaching him to switch, stop/go/stop, and focus, so that when he is ready for a toy reward, the transition goes smoother. Compulsion to proof this and get it really solid can come later... again, when needed.
It is your job as a trainer to read your dog, bring him up or down as needed, and insure that he learns to do the right thing at the right time, minimising mistakes. Whatever method you use has to be adapted to the dog to get the correct end result, whatever that may be.
by Ace952 on 06 January 2012 - 00:01
Can u say...focus?? lol
Great work Cykodog!
Great work Cykodog!
by Two Moons on 06 January 2012 - 00:01
I am old school, and I only use treats with puppies and only sparingly with adults.
I do not use toys to train.
Rewards are for good performance not individual tasks, and praise works better in my opinion with less side effects.
Focus is the first lesson taught.
Moons.
I do not use toys to train.
Rewards are for good performance not individual tasks, and praise works better in my opinion with less side effects.
Focus is the first lesson taught.
Moons.
by brynjulf on 06 January 2012 - 15:01
Just from an outsiders perspective it seems alot more complicated than the old way. I have two steps. step one say platz, step two put pressure on leash until dog is down. That is it no messing about. My dogs work with the same joy and exhuberance as imprinted dogs. I'm a very simple no muss no fuss trainer. less is more for me. Not knocking the food training, looks great for babies. Just different that is all. There are a zillion ways to train a dog. I like to learn as much as I can, I will always be learning new methods.
by melba on 06 January 2012 - 17:01
The method I described is basically only used on young puppies and somewhere in between old school and new school for older dogs. I have worked with clients
dogs that would crumble with any pressure/compulsion put on them, so a more positive training experience is required. Use what the dog gives you. If the dog
is high food or toy driven, why not use that? Compuslion is used for proofing once the dog understands. I would say I take the best of all the methods and use them
accordingly. The more tools you have the better :) I even used the clicker to train my cat to sit, heel and down LMAO great parlor tricks.
Melissa
dogs that would crumble with any pressure/compulsion put on them, so a more positive training experience is required. Use what the dog gives you. If the dog
is high food or toy driven, why not use that? Compuslion is used for proofing once the dog understands. I would say I take the best of all the methods and use them
accordingly. The more tools you have the better :) I even used the clicker to train my cat to sit, heel and down LMAO great parlor tricks.
Melissa
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