Corrections in Public - Page 1

I have Smooth Fox Terrier.  99.99% of the time he's great.  But it's that 0.01% that's a problem.  Correcting the problem is not an issue in class or at home, but in public, it can raise some eye brows.  I live in an urban environment and I frequently walk and/or train my dog in public parks.

He has gone after me on 2 occassions.  The first time was definitely my fault.  He was getting angry at my other dog and just blew when I went to tuck him closer to me on a Heel/Sit.

A recent instance occurred when I was working with him on Sit/Down/Stands.  I've been focusing on his downs, because he tends not line up in a straight line, tending to lie down at an angle.  He was in a down, lying at an angle.  I was using my hand to straighten him, by pushing away from me with my hand on his side, just behind his front leg.  He didn't like it and went after my hand.  I snatched him up by his leash - he was wearing a pinch collar.

In his defense - I missed the signals that he was getting frustrated.  I was confusing him by sending him the wrong messages (I'm still learning).

As I said, snatched him up until he calmed down and then lowered him down (when he's already acting aggressively, tugging on the leash just makes him agrier).  I put him a down and touched his side - he made a move at me again and I responded by smacking him.  He was wearing an ecollar.  I touched him on his side again, and when he reacted aggressively, I zapped him.  I touched his side again and he responded with a snarl so I corrected with the pinch collar.  I get touching him and correcting him when he snarled.  When he finally didn't respond with a snarl, I rewarded with a high value treat.  I kept at it until he consistently did not react aggressively and rewarding with a high value treat each time

We walked for a little while and then did some simple sits so that the training ended on a pasitive note.

He is very much a terrier.  He has dog aggression issues and I am working on his aggression with a trainer that trains attack dogs.

I take responsibility for his aggressive act towards me.  I had been allowing him to do things I shouldn't have - allowing him to lie on the couch and bed with me for 15-20 minutes (no sleeping in the bed).  I have since cut that out and have gone back to working with him on some remedial dominance training (putting him in a down and straddling him, gently rocking him from side to side).

I was just curious how others correct aggressive behavior in public.  If no one had been around, I would probably have slapped him across the muzzle or use the ecollar a little more.  I tend to come down hard on aggressive behavior, which can be a problem in public.

umm...hmm....well.....wow.....
where do i start.............. corrections in public is not an issue here.

dog should never go after owner regardless of place, regardless of what you are doing....he has no respect, nor trust for you as his owner...so i would start with that...he has to trust you with his life...if he does not trust you nor respect you why would he listen to you?

As you say, he is a terrier and terriers will fight back hard if you attack and hurt them - definitely a breed where violence begets violence.  Going by your post, you seem to be on his case a lot and nagging him with an assortment of painful punishment devices, no wonder he doesn't trust you.

Can't you find a trainer who is used to working with fiery terriers?

Margaret N-J

Umm...hmm....well...wow...I'm impressed by your ability to sum up a situation by reading a couple of paragraphs. 

Just my opinion, but in this particular instance, the issue wasn't about trust.  I think it was more about dominance.  I've been letting him do things that I shouldn't have and allowing him to feel he could challenge me.  The repositioning of him was more a dominance thing than trust - standing over him, using my hand to slide him over. 

I agree that his dog aggression is more about trust.  I naively took him to an off leash park when he was young and he was attacked by another terrier.  I am working with him on those issues and the obedience training is part of it.

It's easy to say that the dog doesn't trust the owner or doesn't respect the owner.  That's the easy part and quite frankly, no help at all.  The hard part is trying regain the trust.  Sure, he's less likely to be aggressive to other dogs in class where he's familiar with other dogs.  And he's very likely to be display aggression towards strange dogs, as on walks in public parks.  When this happens, I try to correct him and I try, when possible, to demonstrate that he is safe - such as when the rambunctious and playful young off leash bull mastiff came at us.  My dog went nuts.  I corrected him, got him calmed down, and once the owner of the bull mastiff collected his dog, I walked my dog back and forth by the BM, correcting him when he acted aggressively and rewarding him when he was able to walk calmly past the BM without acting aggressively.

As I tried to state in my original post, I have a hard time giving strong corrections in public as it can freak people out.  I'm not a dog trainer and this is my first dog that has aggression issues.  I work with some really good trainers. I'm just trying to extend what I've learned in class to the street.

He's extremely obedient but can be aggressive.  That's the nature of some terriers.

Jeff....well than looks like you got it all figured out! you don't need us or our humble opinions. :)

LadyFrost ... who are "us"?

Are "us" the people that can see into a dog's entire psyche from a couple of paragraphs?  If so, I'm sorry came onto this forum.  And you can bet I won't make that mistake again.

But thanks for staying on subject.  Your comments about not trusting were nicely balanced by your suggests on how to regain trust.

I won't comment on the method of training that's been advised to you as I cannot see the dog in person and therefore cannot share with you what I would do instead.  However it is good that you are consulting a professional and appear to be following their advice, which is more than I can say for most people that have dogs with aggression issues.  To answer your question... to get the desired results from whatever method you are using, you need to commit to it 100% and do it properly and consistently.  If you do not follow through in public, then the dog would learn this is an exception and the rules do not apply here.  If you are not sure if you are doing it properly, please consult the trainer you are working with.  Aggression issues can be made worse, much worse, if not dealt with correctly... and correctly can vary from dog to dog depending on WHY it's being aggressive and it's overall temperament.  If you are too embarrassed to use harsh methods in public, then maybe try to find an equally qualified trainer that would use a different approach that works for you.  Best of luck with your dog.

Jeffs,
Pain induced corrections will make this situation worse.  The E collar and prong are not appropriate in this case for displaced aggression.  "Zapping" him is going to make it worse and get you bit.  A prong collar correction will also increase his aggression and get you bit.  You need to seek help from someone that has experience dealing with aggressive dogs.  You are going about this in the completely wrong way, IMHO.  Until you change your approach things will get worse.  Corrections in public are not the issue, the issue is your style of corrections.  This is also not about trust, trust has nothing to do with this.

Corrections have to be immediate, fair and consistent no matter where you are or who is watching

If and when you have to provide a “hard correction” in public, chances are someone is going to witness it.
 
And more than likely they will think that you are abusing the dog.
 
This is when you need to be aware of your surrounding and the people in it, if you see that “horrified look” in their face; take the time to calmly and politely explain why you corrected the dog the way you did.
 
Explain that while it may have looked very painful (hopefully you did it correctly and did not cause any real pain) that it was not, and that under the circumstances your immediate correction was necessary to teach the dog that its actions were unacceptable.
 
Even after doing this, keep in mind that you may get a visit from Animal Control/SPCA. And if you do they may not know anything about dog training or specific breed traits.
 
Once again take the time to calmly and politely explain why you corrected the dog the way you did.


JMO

Kim

If the proper corrections were applied in the first place there would be no reason to apologize or be embarassed.  Kim, your advice as always is spot on.