Feeding And Related Matters. (1) - Page 1

Cheers All, Three times or more DH stated that my response to her input under Feeding Continued was unacceptable, and that she wished to see topic reopened. Format etc of previous Feeding topics went inexplicably 'haywire'. My previous reply to mentioned input was blocked. Also, I felt topic had more to offer - specially where any research in respect of torsion is concerned. Since, DH seems to me to have become conspicuous by her absence, so I'll reopen topic by repeating her previous input and my response thereto. Contributors can then make up own minds. DH: Adding some roughage is a good idea. Most commercial dog foods are too low in fibre. The idea is to have small stools. IMO more for the benefit of the lazy owner who wants less to clean up from the yard. Small stools have little to do with digestibility. Reply: Since when was it the idea to have small stools? I was under impression firmness was the criteria. Rest is partly rhetoric for the 'mums and dads'! DH: The kibble expands slowly in the stomach. If in doubt feed twice a day. There is concern about stretching the stomach wall, which could be a cause for torsion. But if you feed a premium food, it will expand slowly at body temperature, and the outer soaked up layers will start to be digested before all of the kibble is completely soaked through. Reply: Mostly far-fetched mumbo-jumbo - conjured opinions parading as statements of fact. Where are these concerns or authority to do with 'stretching ... wall' and for 'could be cause for torsion'? DH: Most kibble is too low in fat IMO, and too low in roughage. Most senior diets just have cheap fillers, so in other words roughage added, and people pay through the nose for the 'special' diet. If a dog gets older and needs less calories, but the owner feels he still wants to give the dog the same amount as usual, then you soak it to make the meal appear larger. Basically for the benefit of the owner, not so much for the dog. Reply: More mums and dad absurdity. Most extruded foods consist of about 70 % filler (corn or rice starches or similar), with about 5 % of roughage, and that's it. Now we're also into soakage to make owner 'feel' better. Also, none of it, as for above, addresses views expressed in preceding posts - mere generalised distraction. DH: If you live in very warm or very cold climates and dehydration is a possible issue, soaking is a good idea, because your dog may not meet his requirements for drinking and get health problems. Reply: Already responded to in detail. It's clear that DH feeds her animals soaked kibble continuously throughout the day for, otherwise, it simply wouldn't make any difference to thirst needs of the animal under these conditions - ie warm/hot days. Language constantly wrapped up with 'could be' and 'may be'. DH: When you soak, soak in warm water or cold water only to preserve nutrients. Exception is when we put pups on solid food for the first time, because you can only feed well soaked food and you need to feed it at body temperature, so you need to feed it at body temperature. So we put put the kibble in the blender and grind it down to a powder. Then it soaks up the water within 5 minutes and still has a good temperature for feeding Reply: As manufacturers appear to do, DH neatly side-steps main issue: 'to soak', or 'not to soak'. The situation to do with pups is an entirely separate one. She troubles to make lenghty post yet, will say she couldn't be bothered to pick up on previous thread.

(2) Moreover, DH's recent and earlier lenghtier posts display two overriding features: the first is their generalised nature and tenuous connection to preceding posts/statements/questions and, astounding rapidity by which one long input is followed by another. Humble opinion here is that DH has comprehensive reference material, and slots in material therefrom as seen fit - nothing wrong with that of course. I'd apologise for any harshness here, DH, but I thought that your questioning of my harmless 'second language' remark to Chris to be unnecessary.

Hi DH, When may we expect to see you making response to the above as wished-for?

Hallo DH, After persisting with this matter yourself, the courtesy of making reply clearly fails you. You'll no doubt glibly reappear - bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and as innocently ignorant and pure of all things as virginal snow - as I've seen you do before --- once a disagreeble post drops off the Board, that is. Either that, or quickly divert attention by entering four new topics in a row? What's the German: sie sind (du biest?) fur eigenes gutes zu gescheit? (viele schlau?) Not to worry: My level of irritation with the Board has reached some sort of limit!

Hello Peter first my deepest, most sincere and heartfelt appologies for not being available to your every whim at every second of the day. Fovgive me for having a life and spending my Sundays with animate objects, rather than glued to a screen of some sort, hoping for a timly human response. I have not disappeared from any discussion yet, providing I saw that it was still active. I do not spend hours on end on this board or go search for what I might have missed. I saw this earlier today, but had neither the time nor the desire to respond. I also hardly feel that a mere "absence" to reply of less than 24 hours to be considered conspicuous. You had mentioned your suspicious nature several times before, issuing concern about people's absence or lack of response within a mere... hours. Small stools - maybe PR efforts have been wasted in Aussie-land and have gone unnoticed by the public there. It was the hype of the 90s to feed a food that produced as little waste as possible. The public was led to believe that less waste was a sign of better digestability of the food. That was the PR blurp of the pet food companies way back when. And still is today. Check some of the brochures in your local pet shop, you will most likely still find it in there. Same dog can have different degrees of firmness of stool on the same food the same day or over the course of several days. Firmness is determined by digestability **as well as** amount of fibre in the food, as well as how much moisture has been removed during the last stages of digestion process. As well as physical and mental stress, sickness, and of course hydration. So according to your statement a dog would be immune to get "the runs" just because it is on food X? Firmness is merely a desired state of the dogs waste. Firm stool or at least a well formed stool is a sign of a well functioning digestive system. Loose stools are a sign of possible illness, stress, hydration problems, digestion problems, allergies. But it says very little about actual food absorption rates.

Stretching of stomach wall - I recommend some indepth research into bloat and torsion, Peter. Ever had a dog that had it? We did! Very interesting to see the size of the stomach balloon to about a foot and a half in diameter, crushing the dogs spleen in the process. 20% chance of survical when she went in for emergency surgery. She made it but was never the same after. Stomach was stapled to inside of the stomach cavity to prevent further torsion. Bloat is a result of the stomach turning around its own axis so to speak. When it does not turn back, both ends are closed up, the food inside gets sloshed around and starts to ferment, rather than be digested. Gasses build, this is when the actual bloating occurrs. I have no need to check reference material for the comments I put down here, my dear Peter. My comments reflect 30 years of hands on experience with dogs and many other critters. Back to bloat/torision. Other than in a human being the stomach is like a loose pouch, or more like an enlarged portion of tubing between end of esophagus and small intestines, that sloshes around inside the stomach cavity all the time. It does natuarally twist and turn, but usually turns back, so no problems arise from that. If that stomach pouch gets stretched by large amounts of food, it is assumed that it will eventually lack the elasticity to bounce back into its regular position. The formerly shallow pouch now is a deep loose pouch, which cannot twist back. Imagine a long narrow balloon like you use for making balloon animals. When you blow it up half way, and then let the air out again, the part that has expanded the most will be all shapeless and baggy. The end that did have some air, but was not fully inflated yet, will go back to nearly its original shape and can be blown up again and again to that state without loosing its shape and elasticity. Constant stretching of the stomach walls is believed to have the same effect on the stomach muscles like the first section of that balloon. Feeding smaller amounts and thereby only stretching the stomach moderately like the end section of that balloon will allow the stomach keep its shape and elasticity better. Peter - show me some research that has refutes this.

How kibble is digested - Again - basic biology. Read up on it! How do you think dry powerdery kibble is digested in the stomach? Just add a drop of acid and woosh! ready to go on its way to the small intestines? Digestion requires a huge amount of water. It is the job of the stomach to take the bite sized chunks food that were sent down by the mouth and turn them into a liquid mixture before it is sent on for further processing. In the small intestine even more water is added. Which is then removed in the colon before the waste product leaves the body. Your quote: Most extruded foods consist of about 70 % filler (corn or rice starches or similar) - no idea what crappy food you feed, but the ones I feed only have beetpulp as a filler, and that actually mainly as a source of *digestable* fibre. I was not aware up to now that a proper nutrient such as rice or corn is considered a filler? A filler as I referred to it is roughage, or fibre. Fibre has very little nutritional value by itself, especially if of the non-digestable kind. It aids the mechanics of digestion though, and can increase nutrient absorption by slowing down the digestion process. Too much will speed things along too quickly. Too much and not enough water will compact and get everything to a standstill... Corn, rice, potaotes etc on the other hand make up the carb portion of your dogs food, and yes even some of the proteins. Granted, dogs usually have a hard time digesting corn, so it should not be too high up on the lable.

Soaking and hydration: you already said it yourself in an earlier post - your dogs are reduced to havingto drink out of mudholes during your outings because you fail to bring proper water rations to your walks in the hot Australian weather. I recommend some reading on sports nutrition to understand the importance of proper hydration. As already described above, food required large amounts of fluids in order to be digested properly. The body will make these fluids available, if necessary by drawing them away from other tissues. Under extreme weather conditions failure of some of the body's normal functions can be a result. Or chronic problems can start to appear. Just because water is available and a dog drinks frequently does NOT mean it take in enough liquids!!! Anyone here ever get unexplained headaches. Drink two 8oz glasses of water and see what happens. Or feel luggish, tired, irritated, have problems concentrating?? A dog of the size of a shepherd needs about a liter and a half of water during the day under normal conditions. Very dry air, regardless if hot or cold air, will increase fluid requirements. Increased exercise will increase fluid requirements, and so on. When soaking you can make sure that your dog will meet at least the minimum requirements. I never said leave it out there to rot in the hot weather. I assume any half-witted twit can figure that one out for himself and does not have to be babied into such unnecessary details. By the latest, after you have removed all the maggots from your dogs dish the next day, nature should have tought you otherwise. So for those who are still in doubt - feed and soak only as much as your dog will eat in one session. If still not clear, eMail me privately and I will send a detailed description on how this is done properly that even a 4th grader will understand.

And as for returning bright eyed and bushy tailed - I see no need to enter any pissing matches over such minor dribble as some of the insignificant issues that you have turned into major ones. Surely this reply is both entertaining and hopefully at least a little educational for some of you out here. Reference material - 30 years of experience, a good memory, many educational seminars and training seminars attended, hands on experiences with own dogs and other critters, and in vet clinics (off-hours help in exchange for vet bills), with fellow breeders, trainers, handlers, dog lovers, you name it. My personal library holds only 7 books on dogs and one on wolves: one breed book each on Rigebacks, Whippets, Sighthounds, Bernese Mountain Dog, one on a german TV series about dogs that I really enjoyed watching, one called Dogwatching that I picked up at a sale (good newbie book nothing for anything more serious), one on Bach Flowers for dogs (alternative meds). And "The Wolf" by Eric Zemen, excellent read. Long replies - I write these on my PC and post when they are finished. Since this board has a limit to size, the text may be broken up into several posts. As to you Peter - In future you might want to leave decision as to when someone should feel embarrased by what they have written and posted here for that person to determine themselves. And also, make up your mind - am I brilliant, or just full of it? Feel free to chose either, or both, or neither. Then stick to your own opinion and continue to post here in a civilized manner. You seem to be quick to criticise others for their conduct. I suppose you start with leaving out some the the more flowery descriptions that you work in so neatly into your own remarks. Things can only irritate if you let them.

And as for returning bright eyed and bushy tailed - I see no need to enter any pissing matches over such minor dribble as some of the insignificant issues that you have turned into major ones. Surely this reply is both entertaining and hopefully at least a little educational for some of you out here. Reference material - 30 years of experience, a good memory, many educational seminars and training seminars attended, hands on experiences with own dogs and other critters, and in vet clinics (off-hours help in exchange for vet bills), with fellow breeders, trainers, handlers, dog lovers, you name it. My personal library holds only 7 books on dogs and one on wolves: one breed book each on Rigebacks, Whippets, Sighthounds, Bernese Mountain Dog, one on a german TV series about dogs that I really enjoyed watching, one called Dogwatching that I picked up at a sale (good newbie book nothing for anything more serious), one on Bach Flowers for dogs (alternative meds). And "The Wolf" by Eric Zemen, excellent read. Long replies - I write these on my PC and post when they are finished. Since this board has a limit to size, the text may be broken up into several posts. As to you Peter - In future you might want to leave decision as to when someone should feel embarrased by what they have written and posted here for that person to determine themselves. And also, make up your mind - am I brilliant, or just full of it? Feel free to chose either, or both, or neither. Then stick to your own opinion and continue to post here in a civilized manner. You seem to be quick to criticise others for their conduct. I suppose you start with leaving out some the the more flowery descriptions that you work in so neatly into your own remarks. Things can only irritate if you let them.