scent work / detection - Page 3

Samuel 28
If you want to search for narcotics and guns then I would suggest to use 2 dogs. The reason you do not train explosives with other illegal substances like narcotics is because if the dog alerts then you do not know if he alerted on a marihuana joint or explosive booby trap. That is dangerous proposition. There are  also legal reasons for not to do any  such or similar  cross training. 
I have trained firearms detection dogs and they alert on brand new gun from a box supposedly never fired or gun perfectly cleaned  with multiple solvents. They also alerted on ammo of many types. 
I do not personally care what is the dog alerting on as long as he does. That said dog trained on  alerting on gun may alert on some  explosives if trained with fired weapon or ammo which may permeate the odor of the different explosives. Same as a cash dog which I have trained alerted reliably on cocaine even so she was never trained to alert on cocaine. ( All used paper currency is contaminated with cocaine.) If you fire a gun part of the gun powder  does not explode and may transfer it's scent on the gun with it. Thus I personally would not train narcotic detection dog in combination  with firearm  weapons detection. 

the 1st was basically if you could have a narcotics dog that would search for firearms too. not laced with human scent just a firearm in a vehicle. say someone had illegal fire arms and ammo hidden in compartment. could or would you have the same dog searching for both illegal narcs and firearms. As im guessing you would have to have the dog trained on the ammunitions powder to segregate the firearms scent from everything else. So can you add that one scent to a narc dog? if so would you use same command or a different one.

As stated by Hired Dog it is a generally accepted principal to not cross train explosives detection and narcotics detection.  Our Patrol / Narcotics dogs are trained for article indication.  The dogs will indicate anything with human odor.  Our dogs will indicate on shell casings, guns, cell phones, paper, car keys, or anything else that has been touched by a person.  Cell phones and car keys are very useful, and most of those searches are for keys to Police cars lost in the woods or a lost Dept. cell phone.  We use a separate command for article / evidence searches.  Our Explosives dog does not do evidence or article searches.  But will alert to guns and is used for that.  


and the 2nd was would you rather the dog indicate on thrown evidence/articles during track to apprehend a suspect or would you rather him focus on the track to apprehend as quickly as possible and the come back and conduct area search with your dog to find any evidence?

Dogs will naturally go and alert to evidence on a track, especially when trained for article indication.  I prefer my dog to stop and indicate any evidence left on a track.  Recovering evidence is a critical part of an investigation.  One important aspect of recovering evidence as you are tracking confirms that you are on the right track.  It helps to refocus the dog on very long tracks, builds confidence for both the dog and handler and confirms the "scent picture" for the dog.  Stopping to indicate on evidence, stolen property, guns, etc only takes a second.  The time spent with the indication is minimal compared to the advantages gained by recovering the evidence.  If you are actively pursuing a suspect, you simply mark the evidence and designate an Officer to stand by with it.  It can be collected later, I generally will not stop on a track to collect evidence.  If I am deep into the woods on a mile + long track with limited back up, I may stop and photograph a gun with my phone or shoulder mounted video camera, make the weapon safe and then secure it.  I will then keep moving.  The key to successful tracks and suspect apprehension is well trained officers that know how to set up good perimeters, especially in an urban/suburban environment.  I often track at a jog or even a run, when my dog is "on" the track he moves fast.  Going too slow often bores the dog and causes him to be distracted.  You need to go at a good pace for the dog.  But even tracking at a fast pace is not often fast enough to catch up to a motivated fleeing felon who always has a good head start.  That is why the perimeter is so critical, it locks down an area and often causes the suspect to hunker down.  Once the suspect is contained it is only a matter of time and hard work.  

JMO FWIW

@clee, Pseuodo and HR. I know very few dogs trained on the real thing that will indicate on pseudo unless they are imprinted on it.  The components (mainly putrescene and cadaverine as I understand it) are common to human and animal decomp (and even released by plants) and the relative ratios (which I think was the basis for the mix) are going to change if it is used for any length of time (as in re-used) as the components certainly would volatilize at different rates....and of course there are hundreds of other compounds that make up human decomp vs animal.

If someone is going to train HR they need to train full spectrum in type of training aids, size of training aids, age of training aids, and nature of decomposition to get the full picture. Experienced dogs seem to be able to generalize enough to indicate on "new" cadaver odors to which they have not been exposed when given a varied enough background.
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I cannot speak to the drug odors and pseudo; I know drugs are a much simpler scent source though there is still probably a lot of "smells like" out there to have to proof on.

For imprinting I put source odor into PVC pipes and did throws, and got the puppy into hunt at a tender age. New sources we just set out during training and realize the dog may need some confirmation. Many ways to approach it though. I do have a good independent hunter though.

 

Hello everyone. 20 years ago I was trained dog who worked any odor that show him.Universal dog.This is possible but it takes a lot of time training.But you need to have a dog with perfect features for working with smell.Makes a choice of 10 to 20 dogs(3- 4 mont) and that is the best in test smell to work with him.Not every dog can run and trace odors.One dog located odor than 3 m,​other that 20 sm.Different dogs, different job.Most often in training is error  to be hidden item with the smell from the trainer or another person.With their coach smell of dog shows in which direction to look.This should be done with a long stick.So the dog does not know where he is wanted object.Very interesting and long topic.Regards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfNAqmaH5_U  This is a film about a man-legend in Russia.He founded the modern methods of working with dogs, His name is Nikita Karatsupa today all over the world working with his methods.He with his dogs found traces 24-48 hours old.They say alone with two dogs had arrested a group of 30-40 persons.The total number of those arrested by him is more than 400.I regret that the film is in Russian language and to not  translate.

Nedev385,
I train with a woman that does SAR and cadavor work.  Her dogs are trained to scent discriminate and will detect any odor presented to the dog, much like how you describe the "Universal dog."  We had set out narcotics aids for our patrol / narcotics K-9's when she asked if she could run one of the aids.  The dog was never exposed to narcotics and she presented the empty jar the cocaine had been stored in to her dog who immediately went to work and found the aid in minutes.  We then repeated the same procedure with Heroin and the dog nailed that in minutes.  All of the aids were run "blind" and her dog was working off lead with no help from the handler.  It was very interesting to see a dog work odor like this that it had never been exposed to before. 

Hey, anything is possible but it takes a long time to train a dog.Maybe 1 year.I learned from the best officer instructor of police dogs in Bulgaria 20 years ago.His dogs worked flawlessly.Always work in the dark - the dog does not know anything about the smell. Nor the place.Dogs worked equally well on trail of a man of preserved odor and explosive .And biting very bad .Most important is teamwork, you and your dog.You're helping your dog and  dog helps you.This is the right job.And another dog should be running at all times, rain, snow, heat, and noise.Then you can have a perfect working dog.