Corrections in Public - Page 3

O.K. I'm not going to comment on training techniques because I don't know you or your dog and because your question was not about training techniques it was about corrections in public.  I have had instances where people look at me horrified when I have to correct in public, I however train my dogs in public like I respond to my kids in public.  I don't care who is watching I'm going to correct however I see fit.  I did not take my kids in the bathroom if I needed to bust their ass, I did it right there.  As a result my kids did not act up in public because they figured they would get away with it.  Likewise my dogs do not act up in public because they think they will get away with it.  I'm also not going to politely explain my techniques to somebody I don't know that wants to butt in.  Pretty good rule of thumb if I didn't ask your opinion I don't want it.  I have on one ocassion had one lady that did come up and complain about the prong collar when I checked one of my guys, who was just full of herself that day.  I didn't explain it to her, I just calmly said what sounds more like abuse to you a dog that is well trained that I can take anywhere with me so as a result actually gets to participate in my life instead of always staying home, and if it gets loose will listen even in a dangerous situation with distractions so I can always call it back to me, or your dog that is not trained has to live it's life at home, or never getting out of the car, having to be segregated when there are guests at your house, and dosen't come when called so if it's running into the street it gets run over?? Told her if she wanted to cal animal control she was more than welcome to do so and I gave her the number.  Then I went back to working with my dog.  Animal control in my area may not know a lot about every breed but they do know the difference between training and abuse.  I'm also lucky enough to know them well as I have worked with plenty of their rescues that were harder to adopt out and gave them free obedience lessons which of course then gets the dogs adopted out.  But don't worry about what everybody else thinks, it's not their dog and they don't have to live with it.

I never heard of a dominant dog until I came to dog forums on the computer.  A little Fox Terrier may be full of himself but it is very hard to consider a dog of that size as 'dominant.' 

If the question is how to correct a dog strongly in Public and not have people yell at you, my response is I have NO idea. 

I have a large dog who will jump on people (after spending a LOT of time working on this).  I corrected her for getting out of a sit when a 'friend' asked to pet her.   That person went up one side of me and down the other.  I reminded her that my dog could hurt her and could knock her down (she was small and frail and eledrly). 

Did not matter.  She was ready to take me to  the wall for the correction.  I walked away.  She has no idea that I have been fighting this fight with this dog for years. 

Oh.. yes.. and after I gave the dog a serious correction she did not break the sit again but she sure did give the lady yelling at me a quizzical look!

Jeff, why did you get the two terriers in the first place?
All the best
Ulf

OK maybe I'm just more blunt than most people I'm noticing everybody talking about explaining themselves to perfect strangers, really? I find it rude and presumptious for a perfect stranger to walk up and think they are entitled to an opinion on me and my dogs and for them to think I care what their opinion is.  So likewise I'm not gonna be nice about it and I'm not explaining it.  I don't care what their opinion is of me or my dog and have no problem telling them so.

Dominance has nothing to do with size - it's about attitude.  A breeder of terriers that is showing dogs is breeding for dominant dogs.  If you watch a dog show, you'll sometimes see the judge put 2 terriers nose to nose.  It looks like the judge is doing it in order to compare the physical features of the 2 dogs - but they are actually looking to see how the 2 dogs react as in which one is more dominant.  Putting the 2 dogs nose to nose is called sparring.

I got the 2 male SFTs at the same time because I thought they make good companions.  It would have been better if one had been female, but the breeder doesn't sell females to non-breeders.  I'm of 2 minds.  On the one hand, my breeder said that I should have waited a couple of years between dogs and gotten 1 male and 1 female.  The breeder said the best time to get 2 terriers is at the same time.  In my opinion, if I had the dominant one first, there is no way I could have gotten a second male puppy after 3 or 4 years.  The dominant would have killed it. 

They fight occassionally - more like a mauling.  I had to learn how to treat the 2 dogs so that the dominant one wouldn't feel the need to re-establish dominance over the subordinant one.  The subordinant one is never, ever allowed on the bed.  I will let him lay on the couch with me for a few minutes only after the dominant one has been put away for the night.  The dominant one is always let out of crates first, fed first, etc.

Having the 2 dogs has been great experience.  The dominant one has forced me to learn a lot about dogs, aggression, and obedience.  The subordinant dog is a push over.  He's the exact opposite of the dominant one.  He wants to play, is really funny (I swear he has a sense of humor), prefers the indoors to the outdoors.  He's so pliable.

The dominant one will go anywhere - he loves to go up to the attic.  The subordinant dog has no interest in going up to the attic.

The dominant one is a great, great dog.  But what makes him great can also cause trouble for an inexperienced owner, which I was when I got him.

I love both dogs.  They are both great but in completely different ways.

Marget N-J

I haven't read any advice from you, kaffirdog, or slampunc, etc.  All I have read from them is that I'm doing it wrong, my dog doesn't need this or need that.

I don't really care to get into a debate about training techniques with dogmatic trainers.  If positive only works for you, then great.  It's doesn't work for my dog. 

My dog started being aggressive a little after turning 1 year old.  I admit it was my fault.  I looked and looked for a trainer for a long time.  I was at my wits end because the dominant one was attacking my other dog about once a week and going absolutely nuts whenever he saw another dog.  I was spending about $1,000 every 3 months for vet bills, not to mention having to take time away from work to deal with home visits by animal control.

I looked and looked for a trainer.  I was desperate to find one - but none would work with dogs with aggression issues.  Not a one.  So finally I find one.  She's been a godsend.  I love her to death.  And yes, she uses prong collars. And she takes all dogs, not just the low energy dogs.  I recently called the trainer that runs a local club because I wanted to try rally.  No go because my dog has aggression issues.  She had no suggestions either.

And to all of the positive only advocates offering up free advice - thanks but no thanks.  You don't agree with my training techniques - too bad.  I wasn't looking for approval. 

To offer up advice about training a dog that you've never seen is mind boggling.  I have 2 fox terriers that require completely different approaches to training them.  What works for one will not work for the other.  I realize that and I'm only training 2 dogs.

Go to the shelter - get the meanest, nastiest pit bull mix you can find.  Train it to win obedience competitions and socialize it until it can be let off leash with other dogs and then come talk to me.  Until then, save it for the client with flat coated retriever.

I'll tell you who needs the rath and snarky comments - people who don't train their dogs at all.  People with the flexi-leads who let their dogs go anywhere they want.  The dog owners with the prong collars on a tight leash.  The owner of the sharpei that I see on a regular basis that walks their dog on a 20 foot lead and allows the dog to walk 20 feet ahead, staring and challenging all the other dogs it sees.  The owner that walks their dog off leash, allowing it to bolt out of the house and directly at me and my dog.  The owner with little fluffy on a flexi-lead that walks straight for me and my dog, who is cute and very obedient, and continues to walk towards us even after I tell them my dog doesn't tolerate the presence of other dogs.

In my entire life, i have only heard 1 dog owner ask another dog owner if it was OK for them to bring their dog over for a meet.  Once.  And it turns out that person used to go to the trainer I use.  Amazing.

Hmmm...when I rescued a female GSD slated for euthanasia (she is 12 almost 13 now) that was a red zone dominant dog, on hind legs snarling at even the sight of another animal, killing anything she caught, attacking other dogs over water, pulling on the leash....I did just the opposite.  She was NEVER allowed on the bed, EVER.  She ate last, she drank last.  She NEVER was allowed to walk in front of me.  She NEVER was allowed to put her head/body over the other dogs.  I won't go into it all, but she was not reinforced in her desire to be the Queen.  She got lots of love when she was calm and exhibiting proper behavior.  She now gets along with my cats, has been living with the three males I have now since they were pups (I had two adult males when I got her, but they have passed away now   )  and she now accepts and is fine with the cats she stalked and wanted to kill (it has been 6 years without any issues).  I did not use yanking sharp corrections that up drive nor an e collar, but she was WAS corrected.  However, I do not allow the dominant dog to be the alpha in my house..I AM the ALPHA BITCH and I decide who eats and when and from where but I do not use an e-collar, or so much physical force to correct that people would think something abusive was going on.  Has one male or the other tried to show out to the others, yes, and I stop it when it is just a look or body posture.  And that is the same thing I do, a look, body posture, appropriate correction, but the e collar and manhandling will up the ante and not give you what you want.

Also, how long are doing this obedience for?  You know three 10 minute positive sessions throughout the day is MUCH better than 30 minutes done out of frustration.  That also could be part of the problem.  And, you know, we are all trying to help you and especially your dog and the types of corrections you are using WILL cause increased aggression, the direct opposite of what you said you want.  Fixing that will fix the other issue.

 

Jeffs,
How old are you? 

I can tell you exactly how you should handle your dog.  Even better I can take your dog and in 5 minutes resolve this issue with me handling your dog.  I could spend an hour with you and attempt to show you how to handle your dog.  But, I don't think you would grasp the concept, you certainly have not comprehended what I have said so far. 



You my friend are the one with the snarky comments.



A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing and that is certainly the case here.  If you can provide one valid reason why I should spend my time explaining how to handle a dog aggressive dog to you; I'll be glad to do it.  I have explained it many times on this forum to those who really needed the help, wanted to learn and appreciated it.  You can search the old posts on dog aggression and see.  I will say that I am a proponent of positive training, but I understand the need for proper corrections as well.  I can assure you that I have handled, trained, competed and been bit by dogs far stronger than yours.    

Jeffs,
Do a search on the message board for "dog aggression" and you will find several topics that can assist you.  Take your time and read the threads and techniques on handling dog aggression. 

To make it easy here is the link:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.search?s=dog+aggression 


This will save me lots of time repeating myself.  If you still have any legitimate questions after reading these threads I will try to answer them.  Good luck and I hope this helps.

Jim

Jeffs

I'm curious, what makes you think you have a dominant dog and why ws it your fault he became aggressive?

Margaret N-J