French Ring? - Page 2

Konotashi: " I won't pick a sport and get a dog JUST to do that sport. I'll get a dog (a GSD in this case) and pick a sport. "
Thank you ! 

Peter, one thing you said in your post stood out to me. 

You said Mals are easier to train. What do you mean by that? 

In flyball, some dogs are 'easier' to train for the sport, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are 'better' for it. 
My Pomeranian ran in his first tournament after four months of being introduced to flyball. He is a consistent runner (only ever have gone around the jumps once due to injury). 
He caught on quickly and learned it quick. His fastest time is 5.9, with his average being around 6.5, which is quite slow for a flyball dog, in all honesty. (Though consistency is valued over speed). 
However, the JRT on our team took over a year to train before he entered his first tournament. He was quite difficult to train (being a JRT, of course), but now that he's got it down, he is consistent and FAST for as small as he is. His average time is close to five seconds. 
Using that, I'd say although my Pom was easier to train than the JRT, that doesn't make him better suited for the sport than the JRT. 

Same can be said for whippets. Since they are sight hounds, they can be difficult to train in flyball (particularly on the return), but when they are trained, they are a force to be reckoned with. 

Unless a dog is truly not suited for a sport (I can honestly think of at least one flyball dog that should not be in flyball because she has absolutely zero desire to do it, but does it because her owner wants her to), the proper training can determine whether a dog succeeds or fails. 

One of the clubs nearby has the top decoy in the country, and I know a good decoy has a huge part in training. If I get a GSD that is willing and able to do FR, and I have the determination to do it, as long as I find a club that can train me and my dog, I think we could both succeed. 

ETA: Considering this will be my first GSD and my first time working a dog in any protection venue, once I choose a sport (whether it be FR or IPO), I will stick to one and not attempt both at the same time. 

One of the clubs nearby has the top decoy in the country
Who is this "top decoy in they country"?  By what standard of measurement?

Has anyone that's active in SchH (or has been in the past) currently active in French Ring?
I have been active in Ring for 20+ years, and have also trained/titled a few dogs in Sch.  I've gone both directions, taking a Ring dog and crossing them over to Sch, and taking Sch dogs and crossing them over to Ring.

What are the primary differences to you?
Ring includes obedience, jumps and bitework.  Full body suit, the dog can bite anywhere.  Sch includes tracking, obedience and bitework.  Sleeve only in protection.  In French Ring the quality of grip is not judged, the work of the decoy is not intended to allow the dog a full grip.  In Sch grip quality is judged.  Sch is about performing the routine in a very specific way, Ring is about getting the exercises done in whatever way the dog chooses.   With Sch the devil is in the details, and that's where some of the pressure of the sport comes from, trying to create a perfect routine with precise straight recalls, retrieves that are as fast coming back as they are going out, barking that is perfectly rythmic, etc.  All while projecting a certain picture/atittude.  With Ring as long as the dog gets the job done in the time alloted, and the manner required (retrieve the object without chewing, heel in position but happy attitude isn't required, stop the guy escaping whether it's a frontal or full bite, escort in any position desired as long as they can stop an escape) it's going to earn the points.  While Ring handling appears more casual from the outside looking in, it is more strict in many ways.  An extra or incorrect command can zero an entire exercise.  Touching your dog at the wrong time can zero an entire exercise.  Looking back at your dog when you leave it can zero an exercise.   Sch handling appears more "clean", but there is a litter more leeway regarding what a handler can do without costing them all the points.   The pressure in Ring comes from the length of the routine (45-60 minutes to do an FRIII), the number of exercises/skills that must be learned, the IMMEDIATE response to commands required, the ability of the decoys to work the dog in whatever manner they choose, within the level of competition, and the length of bite.  So if a decoy sees one dog has an issue with hands they can use lots of hand pressure on that dog in each bite.  If another dog has no issues with hands but doesn't like the stick the decoy doesn't have to do hand pressure with that dog just because they did with the first, they can use more stick pressure with the second.  And a 15 second bite gives the decoy more time to get in the dogs head and make an impression.

Pros and cons to each?
Depends on what you are looking for from a sport.  Ring has no tracking.  Sch tracking tests endurance but the other two phases IMO don't.   Ring doesn't test grip, and the work isn't geared to give you a chance to see the grips.  With some decoys you will, with others I've seen dogs with excellent grips never get a full grip in a trial because of how the decoys worked them.  From an organizational standpoint IMO Sch has to many "midnight trials", and to many trials where a subpar level of work is allowed to title.  In Ring if a dog has an FRIII I have an idea of what that dog can do, and did, to earn that trial.  While there are FRIII's I would have no desire to own, I can't remember ever seeing an FRIII that I thought "man that is a sh!tter".  In Sch saying the dog is SchIII tells me nothing, I need to know what organization, what judge, what score, and then I might know something about the dog.  But I have seen many SchIIIs that my reaction was "that is a sh!tter".  Many SchIIIs I also really really liked, but I don't think the "quality control" is there in Sch that there is in Ring in terms of the titles.

Which do you prefer?
Ring.  For the same reason I think Rally obedience is more fun than standard obedience.  I like the variation in the order the exercises are done, the ability to let my dog work in the manner that is natural to them, the variation in decoy styles, etc.  I'm not a "devils in the detail" kind of person.  If I call my dog and it comes to me and I can snap a leash on it, I'm good with that.  I've done the "spend months teaching a perfect front, 3 inches away, perfectly straight, etc" thing, and I enjoyed it at the time, but it's not really me.  I do miss the tracking of Sch though.  I have friends that do both sports that prefer Sch, they tend to be very detail oriented type people.

Would it be difficult for a dog to start with SchH and transition to French Ring? Or would it be best to start with French Ring so they don't develop what would possibly considered to be 'bad habits' from SchH?
It is best IMO to start the protection work FR style first.  In general dogs seem to find it easier to go up than down, teaching most leg dogs an upper body target isn't a problem.  Teaching a dog who has bit upper body for all it's foundation to consistently bite low can be.  Not for all dogs, I had a Malinois that I did all Sch foundation on, and when I converted her to Ring around 14 months old I think she thanked me for finally letting her bite where her genetics said she should, the legs.  Her Grandma on the other hand I tried to convert from Sch to Ring, and I finally gave up because no matter how much progress we thought we made on the leg targeting, the minute someone put an arm out "Sch style" she'd go high and then get esquived.  She went back to Sch and got her SchIII instead.  But most of my dogs at some point have done both, maybe only titled in one but at least played in both.  And most of them have had no problems going back and forth between sleeve and suit, if the foundation was done on the legs first.  I think in part because a Ring dog is not a stranger to a sleeve concept, it's just that we put the sleeve on a leg not an arm.  But they do learn during their foundation to target a sleeve and not the exposed person, and it's not a big leap to them to later bite that sleeve on an arm.

Also, the nature of French Ring obedience is such that you can teach them "Sch style" and have them be correct for Ring.  Some Sch dogs do forge by Ring standards, so you have to watch for that, but good heeling is good heeling, a solid non-chewing retrieve is a solid non-chewing retrieve, good barking in the blind is good barking, etc  And the dogs are situational, if I'm standing by a jump my dogs know to go over, stop, and wait for me to tell them to jump back.  If I'm standing next to the jump and toss something over they know to go over, retrieve, and jump over on the way back.

Regarding GSD in Ring.  There was a period of time when GSD dominated in Ring.  Jumps were high, or higher than they are now so it wasn't a jumping issue, they did it.  IMO what happened is the decoys got faster, and the dogs got slower.  Not physically, but mentally.  And somewhat physically, the GSD in France 40-50 years ago were a lighter built, straighter backed dog.

A good Ring dog, regardless of the breed, needs to be able to stay in drive for the entire routine.  They don't have to be at the 100% level the entire time, there are times between exercises, but they need to be in drive, and they need to be able to go to 100% instantly.  And they need to react, fast. 

The issue I see with many breeds doing Ring is their drives.  Not how high their drives are, but the duration of their drives.  They come out hot, but they peter out quickly.  And then they become reactive with their drives, vs active.  In an escort they aren't at 100%, ready and waiting for that tiny twitch that means the guy is going to run and they can bite, they are walking along and you see them slowly dropping out of drive, and when the guy does twitch they miss it.  They see they guy run, and then go "oh hey wait he is escaping" and then the drive comes back up and they catch and bite him.  But they have lost 4 or 5 meters while the dog primed for the twitch lost 0.  In the guard of object they aren't "on guard", in a high drive state and totally alert, the entire 5 minutes the exercise can take.  Remember, they are on their own that entire 5 minutes, no handler help.  They may start out "hot" but then as the seconds tick by, there is no bite, etc the drive starts to lower, they aren't as focused, the decoy "puts them to sleep", and they become less aware.  Allowing the decoy to slowly come in and slowly walk off with their basket.  Or they aren't paying attention for a moment and then they forget what exercise they were doing.  Add to this that while in this high state of drive the dog still needs to be clear in the head and able to react to commands instantly.

This isn't just a GSD thing, I see this with other breeds also.  But IMO this is one of the main reasons that while other breeds will compete and get FRIIIs you will see the Malinois winning the big trials.  Their drives mesh well with the sport.  But you get the right GSD, with that required duration of drive, and they can do well also.

holy sheet malndobe, that was the most comprehensive response to a post i have ever read.

know nothing about ring but like appreciate yr explanation.

the whole drives thing was interesting, the clear head, the duration and going from zip to light speed in no time flat i found a quality that all breed tests should be striving for (but what do i know) sounds like the perfect mindset for SWAT???

thanks for the informative post, get on my threads sometime and tell me what you think of my fido and please scathe away if you will.

Thank you for your replies!! Very informative and insightful. 

I was basing the 'top decoy' statement on the fact that he's the only level III decoy listed on NARA's website. :) (I'm skeptical when I see a club that just says they have a top decoy). 
I did cave and ask my breeder if she could get me a dog suited for FR (since I haven't e-mailed her for several months) and she told me what kind of dog I would need, regarding drives and gave me some pairings she could do that would give me the best chance of getting a FR puppy. If you're interested, I could send you the pedigrees of the dogs she mentioned. 

She seemed intrigued at the fact I was interested in FR and asked which clubs I might be considering. 

The West Regional Championships are being held less than an hour away from me next month, so every day I'm not working, I plan on attending to watch and hopefully learn and talk. (Though I know everyone is going to be getting ready to compete, and I know how stressful that can be, so I don't expect to talk to many people for long or about much). Depending on how long the trials usually last (is it usually an all day thing?) I may even go after work to catch some dogs in action. 

My mom also said she would be interested in going with me. She sort of knew I was interested in protection sports, but I don't think she realized I wanted to compete in them. She told me today that she doesn't think anyone should teach their dog to bite. Maybe if she goes with me, she'll see they're not just crazy, aggressive dogs biting willy-nilly with no instruction and that there's a lot of control behind everything they do. 

I've been doing FR with a GSD for 2 years now. We have obtained last year very good scores in Brevet and R1 (98, 181, 182 and 183) For reasons Maindobe explains the GSD is not as well suited as the Mals for the higher levels of the sport where the drive level has to remain high through out the trial. About 45 minutes in R3 and 35 minutes in R2. Some FR clubs also introduce OB in the bite work at a very young age while others have the bitework corrections coming from the decoys. I find the GSD not as well suited to either of these types of training as Mals and DS. Top level FR dogs are often hurt and broken teeth are a problem. My GSD female is only 30 months old and her lower canine are already worn quite a bit. I will not start another GSD in FR. 

The things that Malnobe explained that the GSD is weak in via Ring...( speed, drive maintenance, size, ) are the things that the Gsd dog has gone the wrong direction in. These are things that shows and IPO does not flush out and so they are withering on the vine. You hear him say that many years ago GSD were very good in ring, but the dog was built different in structure and between the ears. Yet, you still have people who think the dogs back in the day were inferior....when you really understand what the breed has lost you can correlate why the GS is disappearing slowly in Ring, KNPV, police, military, etc.....and IPO like was stated is a precision exercise that awards training over innate ability of dog. Good Post Maldobe!

@ maindobe, very, very comprehensive posts. I commented to a friend that reading them was like reading a book. I think the GSD breed would benefit greatly if you would write a book on the points you've made here and do lectures at clubs around the country...people need to here what you are saying if the GSD breed is ever going to have real GSDs, as you described, accepted as the norm for the breed.
JMO

I was basing the 'top decoy' statement on the fact that he's the only level III decoy listed on NARA's website. :)
I just checked who you are talking about, Justin is a very good decoy and currently the NARA Director of Decoys.  The level III is a temporary thing, a decoy certification in Ring is for 4 years.  But a level II decoy can go to a "super selection" which is usually held once a year at the Championships, and if they pass they get bumped up to level III for 2 years.  So if Justin doesn't redo the super selection he will become a level II again in another year or so (I don't remember when he did the level III).  So you'll see decoys going up and down between 2 and 3. 

(I'm skeptical when I see a club that just says they have a top decoy). 
Yeah, I was just curious what it was being based on.  I do believe Justin was the only decoy to pass the super selection last year though, so it could be said he's the top decoy for now.

I did cave and ask my breeder if she could get me a dog suited for FR (since I haven't e-mailed her for several months) and she told me what kind of dog I would need, regarding drives and gave me some pairings she could do that would give me the best chance of getting a FR puppy. If you're interested, I could send you the pedigrees of the dogs she mentioned. 
I'm a Malinois person, breed under the kennel name Dantero, a GSD pedigree wouldn't mean much to me.  I recognize the "buzz names" but ...  From what I have seen of GSD pedigrees in French Ring though, they all tend to go back to a lot of the same dogs that you see in the IPO pedigrees.  Some of them are combinations of the old working and show lines actually (so I'm told LOL)  I would try to google for FRIII GSD and look at their pedigrees.  But from what I've seen/heard about the pedigrees I don't think that's the clue to if a dog will be a good FR dog, I think it's the individual selection.  When 2 generations back the IPO and FR dogs are all going to the same dogs, it's selection criteria that's making the difference.  Selecting for a dog with those drive levels I mentioned previously.

If your breeder is interested in doing a pairing that might make some good FR dogs I'd have them look at things like the drive levels.  Assuming the dogs all have good character, clear in the head, athletic ability, have pedigrees that mesh well, etc then have them pick the ones that show a higher drive and longer duration of drive with a medium frame.  Then when you look at the pups, after removing any that show obvious issues with temperament, environment, etc pull them out and work them with a flirt pole and see who sticks with it the longest.  See who goes for the "dead rag", who even when they are getting tired can be convinced to go back and chase some more.

The West Regional Championships are being held less than an hour away from me next month, so every day I'm not working, I plan on attending to watch and hopefully learn and talk. (Though I know everyone is going to be getting ready to compete, and I know how stressful that can be, so I don't expect to talk to many people for long or about much). Depending on how long the trials usually last (is it usually an all day thing?) I may even go after work to catch some dogs in action. 

I plan to be at the Regionals, I doubt I'll be trialing but you never know.  My guy knows the FRIII routine, but he's still young in the head (about 20 months) and I'm just waiting for him to mature a little more and come into his own.  Plus our training has been sporadic lately.  But I'll be there to watch at least.  I'll be easy to find, just ask someone where Kadi is LOL

She told me today that she doesn't think anyone should teach their dog to bite. Maybe if she goes with me, she'll see they're not just crazy, aggressive dogs biting willy-nilly with no instruction and that there's a lot of control behind everything they do. 
She can come meet Kita, I'll probably have her with me.  Prior to an injury that ended her career Kita won the Western Regionals and National Championships in FRI.  She also LOVES people, small children, babies and other dogs.  Loves cat's to, but that's not the friendly type of love LOL  Since she can still work, I just don't want to ask her to compete (tore her cruciate) she does bitework demos and is my ambassador for protection dogs.  It's hard for people to think the dogs are all vicious killers when they see a dog doing bitework, then walking off the field into the crowd to go play with small children.