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by Super Para on 11 May 2010 - 16:05
Fantastic thread Steve, and already we have some great theories. Along the many years of having Working Dogs I also have some: A lot of top competion Dogs are "trained to death". Yes I agree that to get to the top you have to put in the hard yards, however Dogs like us have good and bad days.
Yes good breeding and genetics play a big part in the makeup of the animal and its ability to handle stress/pressure, as does the temperament and understanding of the handler. Over the years I have had many dogs some good some not so good, they are all different just as we are, and a good Dog man/woman sees and understands this and trains to these strenghts and weaknesses.
It has already been highlighted Young/immature, we must not forget that the GSD matures slowly, some may say that Eastern European Dogs mature quicker, this I cant comment on as I have never been fortunate enough to own one, however the GSD I believe is the most versatile and trainable breed going.
Big competion people can and do go through the dogs to get the one that takes them to the top, is this right? Horses for courses, I personally persist and providing the Dog can do it on the street, then it deserves the best I can give it- a home and care for the rest of its life.
Just my thoughts.
by sueincc on 11 May 2010 - 16:05
The pressure of the control work. It's very demanding, especially at higher levels. How many dogs have what it takes to handle the pressure demanded by high level work in all 3 phases? How many times does pressure for high points in secondary ob result in dogs that get chewy and growly on the sleeve, or lose drive? I think probably dogs are pushed too young, but also not every dog has what it takes to handle the pressure at the top, even ones that look very promising at a young age and are brought along the right way, still might not have what it takes to handle the pressure. Some dogs might be lucky to title, some dogs might be great club dogs to compete with, some might be regional level dogs and some might be true stars. Much of it has to do with how the dog handles pressure I think. This is why a resilient (hard) dog is so prized.
I am only speaking in general terms, here.
I am only speaking in general terms, here.
by FHTracker on 11 May 2010 - 16:05
I think that on a young dog a lot can be done in 'prey' drive but then when genuine pressure comes into the mix the cracks in the foundation begin to show.
This is the case across all three phases. There is a big difference in a 'prey' obedience from a dog with the mindset of 'if I look up long enough the ball will fall down!' vs understanding the concept 'if I am obedient and attentive to my handler I am positively rewarded'. One is simply anticipation of a learned habit, the other is performing a specific task for reward.
In protection a dog can be taken a long way in prey, especially if they are worked on helpers who 'help' them but then when they go to a helper who either really intends to 'bring it' or doesn't know to twitch the sleeve before presenting the threat, the dog becomes confused quickly and it all tumbles apart from there.
Even in tracking, there is a difference between 'oh I walk along and food comes from the ground' and 'I keep my head down and work this scent and I will be rewarded with my effort'.
You can get good results in prey/play drive but you have to take the time to make sure that the concept of the training is worked into the dog, not just go off the idea of 'oh he heels so pretty!! ... when the ball is under my arm'.
This is the case across all three phases. There is a big difference in a 'prey' obedience from a dog with the mindset of 'if I look up long enough the ball will fall down!' vs understanding the concept 'if I am obedient and attentive to my handler I am positively rewarded'. One is simply anticipation of a learned habit, the other is performing a specific task for reward.
In protection a dog can be taken a long way in prey, especially if they are worked on helpers who 'help' them but then when they go to a helper who either really intends to 'bring it' or doesn't know to twitch the sleeve before presenting the threat, the dog becomes confused quickly and it all tumbles apart from there.
Even in tracking, there is a difference between 'oh I walk along and food comes from the ground' and 'I keep my head down and work this scent and I will be rewarded with my effort'.
You can get good results in prey/play drive but you have to take the time to make sure that the concept of the training is worked into the dog, not just go off the idea of 'oh he heels so pretty!! ... when the ball is under my arm'.
by steve1 on 11 May 2010 - 17:05
There are some very good points made here by you Guys
Nona had a slight advantage over some of you for i put something in the Post then when he replied i deleted it as it was partly giving the game away on my part
These Young Dogs got to Sch3 quickly and they were very good in all three phases, Then i watched them in a top level competition this year early One failed to track and scored very low he came out in Obed but was not the Dog i saw some months earlier, Protection he did okay But i thought hard about it and when a big trial came up he was again not so good in Tracking or Obed his Protection was fairly good not great but a good score in the low 90's Another one was similar who i had watched a few months before twice then
I thought about it and i found out that these Dogs and Handlers were excellent in training, BUT they trained on one ground and of course they were good the Dogs and handlers knew the work field like the backs of there hands or the dogs knew every blade of grass
It came to me that when moved to a strange work field, and with the atmosphere different more tense etc that The Dogs and in turn the handlers could not cope yet these Guys are very experienced indeed
So to me the pressure got to the Dogs and they made a mistake
I did not see any tracking but earlier twice this year i watched the Obed and Protection
One Guy had failed on the tracking earlier that morning he went out for his Obed, But his Dog was not the Dog i saw months earlier the prior year,he was making mistakes and these Judges were going to really hammer them for it
I saw one dog Not sit The handler turned walked back and went through to do the Down BUT i saw the shoulders of the Handler slump when he saw his Dog did not sit, again the Dog picked up on its handlers confidence and it did not do well after that, I guess it was a really important trial and it was the tracking did not go good and the confidence of the handler was going I saw it when he walked out on the field and i said to my brother he is going to mess it up My brother said why,his confidence is not there i said and it turned out so
The Other Guy was similar, His Dog messed up on all three Phases but his tracking was bad He spoke to me a bit later after he had finished and said he was at a loss to know his dog was perfect tracking at home
I said yes, because i guess you track in fields he knows , Thats is right he said two fields
I said when are you competing again he said early June, Then i said Forget any tracking until you go for the event
Do not do any more between now and June then take him and get on with it you cannot lose anything by doing it
Steve1
Cont
Nona had a slight advantage over some of you for i put something in the Post then when he replied i deleted it as it was partly giving the game away on my part
These Young Dogs got to Sch3 quickly and they were very good in all three phases, Then i watched them in a top level competition this year early One failed to track and scored very low he came out in Obed but was not the Dog i saw some months earlier, Protection he did okay But i thought hard about it and when a big trial came up he was again not so good in Tracking or Obed his Protection was fairly good not great but a good score in the low 90's Another one was similar who i had watched a few months before twice then
I thought about it and i found out that these Dogs and Handlers were excellent in training, BUT they trained on one ground and of course they were good the Dogs and handlers knew the work field like the backs of there hands or the dogs knew every blade of grass
It came to me that when moved to a strange work field, and with the atmosphere different more tense etc that The Dogs and in turn the handlers could not cope yet these Guys are very experienced indeed
So to me the pressure got to the Dogs and they made a mistake
I did not see any tracking but earlier twice this year i watched the Obed and Protection
One Guy had failed on the tracking earlier that morning he went out for his Obed, But his Dog was not the Dog i saw months earlier the prior year,he was making mistakes and these Judges were going to really hammer them for it
I saw one dog Not sit The handler turned walked back and went through to do the Down BUT i saw the shoulders of the Handler slump when he saw his Dog did not sit, again the Dog picked up on its handlers confidence and it did not do well after that, I guess it was a really important trial and it was the tracking did not go good and the confidence of the handler was going I saw it when he walked out on the field and i said to my brother he is going to mess it up My brother said why,his confidence is not there i said and it turned out so
The Other Guy was similar, His Dog messed up on all three Phases but his tracking was bad He spoke to me a bit later after he had finished and said he was at a loss to know his dog was perfect tracking at home
I said yes, because i guess you track in fields he knows , Thats is right he said two fields
I said when are you competing again he said early June, Then i said Forget any tracking until you go for the event
Do not do any more between now and June then take him and get on with it you cannot lose anything by doing it
Steve1
Cont
by steve1 on 11 May 2010 - 17:05
Cont above
So where do we go from there, Our working fields are all different over here some are small some are larger, some have undulations in the walking and it does throw you the handler and the Dog off Balance,
Some have blinds going one way, another field the opposite Some have Wood Blinds some with Hedging round them all different and this is what these young Dogs meet when they go to big trials,
Plus the Judges are so critical there cannot be any small mistakes they hit them hard and i guess if a Dog messes up the handler gets a bit hyped up and the Dog picks it up from his handler and more mistakes happen and a young dog cannot cope with the Pressure and he folds up in effect
This is why you will notice in some of my posts that i take the Dogs to three different training clubs to train at I know how different each are some i do not like but i go all the same so both Izzy and i get used to the change in surface and size i have to change my steps from one to the other at first i was misjudging them because of the size of the field, I always look for thing to be different to work on so when we do get to a Trial we are then hopefully prepared for what it is However i will make a point myself before i do Izzy's BH in Sept to go to the Club and train her on that work field a couple of weeks before the BH
It makes sense to do so maybe i have missed out a few bits but basically that is what i think
Steve1
So where do we go from there, Our working fields are all different over here some are small some are larger, some have undulations in the walking and it does throw you the handler and the Dog off Balance,
Some have blinds going one way, another field the opposite Some have Wood Blinds some with Hedging round them all different and this is what these young Dogs meet when they go to big trials,
Plus the Judges are so critical there cannot be any small mistakes they hit them hard and i guess if a Dog messes up the handler gets a bit hyped up and the Dog picks it up from his handler and more mistakes happen and a young dog cannot cope with the Pressure and he folds up in effect
This is why you will notice in some of my posts that i take the Dogs to three different training clubs to train at I know how different each are some i do not like but i go all the same so both Izzy and i get used to the change in surface and size i have to change my steps from one to the other at first i was misjudging them because of the size of the field, I always look for thing to be different to work on so when we do get to a Trial we are then hopefully prepared for what it is However i will make a point myself before i do Izzy's BH in Sept to go to the Club and train her on that work field a couple of weeks before the BH
It makes sense to do so maybe i have missed out a few bits but basically that is what i think
Steve1
by FHTracker on 11 May 2010 - 17:05
Steve,
I think in a nutshell you are talking about something I firmly believe in, which is if a dog knows how to run blinds, truly has the foundation and clear understanding of what is wanted of him (ie ... 'revier' and the hand mean go to the blind 'hier' return to handler, 'revier' repeat) then as you say, it should not matter what the blinds look like.
Color, wood vs fabric, run left to right or right to left, the basic command and what you are asking the dog to do is the same. Run to the indiciated blind, check and return.
Same with any aspect of obedience or tracking. "Sook" means nose down and track, no matter if it's short grass, high grass, dirt or leaves, "hup" means "hup" no matter if the obstacle is wood, fabric, a stick in the air.
But you're right in that handlers sometimes confuse a true understanding of the commands, with the dog just repeating a learned behavior in a certain spot at a certain time.
To Edit: A prime example of this is the Vorause.
Many of us teach our dog to go out and get the ball, that the 'ball' is out at a certain spot on the field. "Ball, ball, ball" But truly the idea of the command should be "I say Vorause, you run out until I say stop" but in truth for how many dogs, even high competition dogs, is the command more about "Oh right I run out here and somewhere there's going to be a ball ... ball, ball, where's the ball?"
I think in a nutshell you are talking about something I firmly believe in, which is if a dog knows how to run blinds, truly has the foundation and clear understanding of what is wanted of him (ie ... 'revier' and the hand mean go to the blind 'hier' return to handler, 'revier' repeat) then as you say, it should not matter what the blinds look like.
Color, wood vs fabric, run left to right or right to left, the basic command and what you are asking the dog to do is the same. Run to the indiciated blind, check and return.
Same with any aspect of obedience or tracking. "Sook" means nose down and track, no matter if it's short grass, high grass, dirt or leaves, "hup" means "hup" no matter if the obstacle is wood, fabric, a stick in the air.
But you're right in that handlers sometimes confuse a true understanding of the commands, with the dog just repeating a learned behavior in a certain spot at a certain time.
To Edit: A prime example of this is the Vorause.
Many of us teach our dog to go out and get the ball, that the 'ball' is out at a certain spot on the field. "Ball, ball, ball" But truly the idea of the command should be "I say Vorause, you run out until I say stop" but in truth for how many dogs, even high competition dogs, is the command more about "Oh right I run out here and somewhere there's going to be a ball ... ball, ball, where's the ball?"
by Nans gsd on 11 May 2010 - 21:05
OK so I have read all of the above; here are my thoughts. Steve mentioned several dogs he thought did so well then they bombed. Well I do think even though they have competed well in something that you cannot slack off or stop the training. These dogs grow and blossom on repetition in training that is what I feel makes a good dog or a star. Repetition helps build confidence and confidence is what can get them through tough times and different venues. I feel the dogs need to be worked and trained all throughout their lives for various titles and degrees of training; those people probably slacked off on their training and did not offer enough variation in training to make them stars; super stars.
I also agree with whomever brought up the point to change training places; clubs, people, dogs and etc. etc. Variety also helps to build a more confident dog and a dog that you can makes changes with without them falling apart or shutting down.
My thoughts with some experience in general training not so much Sch. All of the above helps us all with various venues.
Thanks for info. Nan
by steve1 on 12 May 2010 - 06:05
Nan
These Dogs were not slacked off in there training at any time, and The Blinds were run okay each event I cannot say each dog was foot perfect only the Judge can see that, we all know sometimes a dog will run wide round a hide or as he comes around is a little wide but that was not the problem, I mentioned one dog making mistakes and as the Obed Session went on made more mistakes the handler was not his usual confident self after the Tracking Phase i guess he knew the game was over for his chance to go forewards to the WUSV after the tracking, and the funny thing was his Dog missed the Send away so he lost it, a shame for as i said his Protection was not bad i guess the Dog was in a different frame of mind for that
I will be watching how these dogs fair later on There are still some big events coming up if they are entered
For me i think variation of working fields is very important, as i said ours are different sizes the walking on them is different i know the one at Fred's Club on Tuesdays is very undulating meaning you can walk along then your foot drop into a shallow it throws you off balance for a second or so with the Dog plus it can be the dog to catch one and it can change its gait for a stride or two but it certainly throws you off.
Sometimes the training session goes well there another time i am not so satisfied but we need to get used to such places because you never know where you will be trialling at a later date
And the size of the fields are different if you go only to one work field you and your dog know it your stride is the same everything is the same, and if you train there 3 - 4 times a week it becomes easy and predictable go from one different training ground one day, a couple of days later to another then another all different makes a lot of difference to me and that is what we do with our own dogs
. Sometimes we go privatly just us two brothers if i am trying to get Izzy say a Sendaway which i am, i do not want too many distractions at the time of learning,
Problem with her is her speed she is like a greyhound i have never seen a young dog or older one move so fast, It may be her undoing but it is early days yet on that
Steve1
These Dogs were not slacked off in there training at any time, and The Blinds were run okay each event I cannot say each dog was foot perfect only the Judge can see that, we all know sometimes a dog will run wide round a hide or as he comes around is a little wide but that was not the problem, I mentioned one dog making mistakes and as the Obed Session went on made more mistakes the handler was not his usual confident self after the Tracking Phase i guess he knew the game was over for his chance to go forewards to the WUSV after the tracking, and the funny thing was his Dog missed the Send away so he lost it, a shame for as i said his Protection was not bad i guess the Dog was in a different frame of mind for that
I will be watching how these dogs fair later on There are still some big events coming up if they are entered
For me i think variation of working fields is very important, as i said ours are different sizes the walking on them is different i know the one at Fred's Club on Tuesdays is very undulating meaning you can walk along then your foot drop into a shallow it throws you off balance for a second or so with the Dog plus it can be the dog to catch one and it can change its gait for a stride or two but it certainly throws you off.
Sometimes the training session goes well there another time i am not so satisfied but we need to get used to such places because you never know where you will be trialling at a later date
And the size of the fields are different if you go only to one work field you and your dog know it your stride is the same everything is the same, and if you train there 3 - 4 times a week it becomes easy and predictable go from one different training ground one day, a couple of days later to another then another all different makes a lot of difference to me and that is what we do with our own dogs
. Sometimes we go privatly just us two brothers if i am trying to get Izzy say a Sendaway which i am, i do not want too many distractions at the time of learning,
Problem with her is her speed she is like a greyhound i have never seen a young dog or older one move so fast, It may be her undoing but it is early days yet on that
Steve1
by utonogian on 09 August 2010 - 21:08
bump
by steve1 on 09 August 2010 - 21:08
I wonder why the poster above me opened up this thread and has said nothing, It finished in May i think a good thread Perhaps i will bring it up again after the final selection Trial for the WUSV it is in fact the Belguim Nationals 29th of this month
I will be watching to see if any of the dogs i mentioned in this thread compete and how they fare
Steve1
I will be watching to see if any of the dogs i mentioned in this thread compete and how they fare
Steve1
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