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by Centurian on 19 November 2017 - 19:11

You just said it , when the drive overrides their mind .. that is to say , the dog no longer thinks but rather is in autonomic reflex behavior .... And if the dog is in autonomic reflex behavior and doesn't think then why do you think that in that state they are in control ? When you autonomically blink your eyes , are you mindful and control of that reflex.. No you are not. You don't have control of your eyes blinking when someone throws something in your face .. do you ? They have a harder time controlling themselves and being controlled then in autonomic mode .
No I like high motivated dog ... and that is very different than talking about high drive. Taking about motivation is very very different. Because as I wrote a thousand times the word drive is limiting, it tells nothing of what the dog is thinking and feeling. When will you ever learn this ? The word Motivation throws a whole different meaning onto understanding behavior.
Susie , trying to have a dialogue with you is like spitting into the wind......
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 November 2017 - 19:11

Well, isn't the difference in training so the dog learns how to cap and control that drive? Isn't that when control comes in and you channel that drive so they can think straight?

Thats why, right now, we work him using his food drive, so he can think straight, than later, when the real helper is there, and he is in drive, we will have to go a few steps back and fall onto his foundation so we can move forward and implement what he learned outside of bitework.

Sure, drive overrides mind when the dog hasn't learned to use his frickin mind while he's in drive. But that's where the training comes in.

As for drives... I want balanced drives and motivated. There are two type of dogs. There are dogs that are in it for you (like my male) and dogs that are in it for themselves. I prefer dogs like my male, that push you to work with them even if there is nothing in it for themselves other than getting the interaction between them and you. 

susie

by susie on 19 November 2017 - 21:11

Nothing to say against some wind - the best way to remove dust and dirt...just use the correct direction when spitting...

I tried to point out that drives are not able to lower genetic intelligence, simply said even in high drive the IQ in itself won't change.

So you want to make use of "motivation" instead of drives - fine.

What do you think is able to motivate a dog?

- Food
- Toys
- Praise
- Self satisfaction out of reaching a personal goal ( hunting, fighting, sex... )
- Anger, fear
- and in the best the willingness to please like BE just pointed out

Prey drive, hunt drive, social drive, sexual drive....

Sorry, BE, for hijacking your thread. I like your dog.


 

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 November 2017 - 21:11

hey, it's the best discussion this board has seen in a while. Highjack away :)

Koots

by Koots on 19 November 2017 - 22:11

Consider this - I'm sure many of you have seen this. You give your dog a command that he/she is just learning and not solid on. For example, you say "stand", and then you see your dog going through it's repertoire of behaviours - sit, down, heel, etc., trying a bunch of already-learned things looking for that behaviour it is you desire, and the associated reinforcement (verbal, clicker, food, etc.) that will signify the correct behaviour has been achieved. Is the dog 'thinking' or just going through what it has already learned, looking for the action/reaction to get it's reward?

I tend to agree with Susie about learned behaviours and that dogs are associative learners. They do something, and learn from the consequences. Trial and error, action/reaction, whatever you call it. Pavlov proved this.

So far as French Ring, I have trained this, among other disciplines and still do not consider the dogs "thinking" so much as reacting to what they observe and are trained to do. Just because there is no set 'routine' does not mean the dogs 'think' through the exercise, they do as they were trained and conditioned. This is why some are more successful, as they have been conditioned/trained to work through whatever obstacles and challenges are put before the desired end - the bite or the defense of object, etc.

BE - I think your dog is not 'leaking' so much as anticipating the reward, and because he is not 100% sure of what is expected he is going through his already-solid behaviours in search of the reward. If you make things more black/white for him, I think you will see his vocalization diminish, as he will know what is expected and not be anticipating his reward until he accomplishes his task. It is not easy to do what you are with him, especially since you are not 100% healthy, and I commend you for what you have accomplished. He has the natural talent and drive, he just needs to be more clear what it is you expect from him. Good luck, and I hope you get to the point in your health that you are able to freely heel and do what it is your mind wants (but body cannot right now).

yogidog

by yogidog on 19 November 2017 - 22:11

That it is BE

by Centurian on 19 November 2017 - 23:11

______________ The American Motivation Psychologist Abraham H. Maslow developed the hierarchy of needs consisting of five Hierarchic Classes. According to Maslow, people are motivated by unsatisfied needs. The needs, listed from basic (lowest-earliest) to most complex (highest-latest) are as follows:[36]

Physiology (hunger, thirst, sleep, etc.)
Safety/Security/Shelter/Health
Social/Love/Friendship
Self-esteem/Recognition/Achievement
Self actualization
Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory can be summarized as follows:

Human beings have wants and desires which influence their behavior. Only unsatisfied needs influence behavior, satisfied needs do not.
Needs are arranged in order of importance to human life, from the basic to the complex.
The person advances to the next level of needs only after the lower level need is at least minimally satisfied.
The further the progress up the hierarchy, the more individuality, humanness and psychological health a person will show. _______



Substitute the word "dog" in lieu of people , for we are both animals . Then it would not be so hard to understand why I utilize the words 'motivation' ,' thinking ' and'feeling' in the realm of dog training .

Susie .. you may be experienced in the canine world .. but many people are not, and they really don't fully understand the full meaning and use othe word 'drive'. But many can understand me when I say the dog is feeling this , the dog is motivated for this , the dog is thinking this and this why the dog does what it does , and this is what we have to do to communcate to the dog.. But I hold my ground that it is better to use 'motivation'.. because , for example, if i say the dog is in defense drive.. that can mean a multiple of things .That description does not tell me what state the dog is in mentally , thinking , feeling , which underlies it's motivation and action. Is the dog insecure and biting brea cuse of that , or is the dog cocky and going t o bbite because it is going to control the situation.

Koots ... in my younger years , I have thought as such and learned : dogs learen through association and reptition. But I have found that position is limitting the capability of the mind of
the dog, For cordial thought sharing I say :

Contemplate this : in dogs as in people , aside from an autonomic neurological reflex i.e. eye blinkig , reflex ,
" FIRST comes the THOUGHT [ cognition] then ... comes the Action ". So .. in your example of that dog offering a repitoire of behaviors , does it not have to first think making that offering of behaviosr ? That thought has to originate in the mind of the dog in order to offer even one of those acts within that repitoire. The dog just doesn't do that out of thin air. Dogs make choice too .... and that is a thought process. If I want to see what article the dog wants to bite , I put two new bite toys on the ground. I see which toy the dog takes. That is a choice the dog makes never had esperience with either of those objects .. and again , that choice is a decision making mental process . If you play flirt pole with a puppy , you will see afterwards the pup will anticipate and cut corners for the bite. Again , that is thinking , problem solving , learning from experience. No one conditioned that puppy to 'cut the corner for the bite '.

Another notion : As far as Operant Conditioning , haven't you ever ever come across a dog that figured out that it is being conditioned and as a result turns the tables such that it has trained the trainer ? I have , a good number of times. That figuring out, takes a 'thought process'.

Ok ... you are going to disagree with me.. I have found many people not realizing these things. But I tell you , being well experienced in psychology that I can attest to this. If you think I am hogwash or what I have written , I have friends , Clinical NeuroPsychologists who have GSs and who have trained years with me [ they are on a very very high professional level and are well repected practioners ] they 100% have agreed and validated what I just stated and see this in their dogs .

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 20 November 2017 - 00:11

=======


Koots

by Koots on 20 November 2017 - 02:11

The dog goes through it's repertoire trying to find what works to get what it wants. If the sit doesn't work, then it tries the down, etc., until it does what you ask and then it gets the reinforcement/reward. If the handler has good timing, then the dog will associate the action with the reaction (reward). Cause and effect.

This is not to say that dogs cannot reason to a limited extent, and some may call this discernment. We often describe a dog as 'smart', but I look at it as more a capacity to learn and to learn quickly.

Perhaps there is more commonality in what we think but we use different terms to describe the ability of a dog to 'think'.

by apple on 20 November 2017 - 13:11

Centaurian,
Drives tell us plenty about what a dog is feeling if you understand the motivations and catalysts behind drives and can read a dog. Thinking is a stretch. How do dogs think? In mental images? Is that thinking? Maslow was referring to people, not dogs, which have much more sophisticated brains and thought processes.  You can't simply substitiute the word dog for human.  Can dogs reconize themselves in a mirror?  Are they able to think about their thinking?  Dogs think, but not in the same way as humans.  That is why drives are used to train them.  Understanding drives in depth can help you get into the head of a dog much more than Maslow's heirarchy.  A dog in defense drive is feeling worried.  How that worry is manifested is the result of genetics and training.  The genetics affect the expression of the worry.  It could turn into the feeling of anger or complete fear resulting in flight.  You will never what a dog or a person is thinking unless you have ascended into a 4th dimensional reality, had you DNA changed from two strand to twelve, and consequently, developed mental telepathy. Or, some people will tell you what they are thinking, but they could be lying.


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