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by Workingk9s1 on 19 November 2017 - 00:11

Next time u wanna see a real dog dm me , let's not blow smoke up people's ass or reward mediocrity

by susie on 19 November 2017 - 00:11

Self control or self discipline needs the ability to think about it. Even the smartest dog is not able to do so.

Humans are the most intelligent mammals on earth, but even our behavior is highly based on instincts, drives, and temperament...

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 November 2017 - 04:11

"Mediocrity" LOL Thank you, I'll stick with my mediocre dog.




As for control. We are getting it back. He's actually got a crapload of Control under is belt which is why I still can turn him off on the spot. I'll post another video later. We are continuing to work on the Transport and trying to get the picture in before our helper is coming up again. Of course we'll have to take a couple steps backwards but by then, he's got the foundation with the platform brushed up and back in his head.

I guess in the grand scheme of things we are mediocre. But so what? Not everyone can be great. I'm happy where we are at and that we are moving forward.

by Centurian on 19 November 2017 - 13:11

BE .... yes stick with what some say is mediocrity .. What I often state to people that I work with is : All that one needs is a dog to competently perform the task. With the only exception : unless you want the world's title and trophy in competition. - then you have the right to be a little wound up tight and obsessive compulsive.
BE -- thanks for sharing the video , I admire you and your dog together. When has, just living life and having fum with the dog gone out the window ?

Susie... always interesting to read your commentary. Won't take the time and effort to heavily debate your statement with the exception of asking you and stating to you this : Have you ever undertaken French Ring
, Mondio Ring , Belgium Ring , PSA , KNVP etc etc ? Because in those sports the dog must*** think !!! Unlike like Shc, in which every single step , movement is pattern . choreographed. I will tell you this , If your dog does not 'think' in those other sports .. it won't make the grade.

The GS well bed , should be a very, very ,very, discerning canine. If someone comes into your home unannounced , is the dog to react on instinct and take that person out ? Or is it to think and decide whether that person is friend or foe.
Since when does a GS not think , even the dumbest GS thinks ... BTW aside from the Mals that I have had , ok they were impulsive .But a GS ... unable to think , verges on being useless.....


by susie on 19 November 2017 - 14:11

Just out of curiosity: At what point does a dog have to "think" in the different sports you mentioned above?
I´d be very grateful for one or two examples.

"The GS well bed , should be a very, very ,very, discerning canine. If someone comes into your home unannounced , is the dog to react on instinct and take that person out ? Or is it to think and decide whether that person is friend or foe."

You believe the dog "thinks" about friend or foe, I believe the dog will act according to its genetic drives, temperament, training...

Think about a "raw" dog-

the social, friendly, not territorial dog will say hello to everybody
the social, friendly, but territorial dog will bark, but not know what to do otherwise
the unsocial, territorial dog will bite
the nervy one - who knows?
Further on - are we talking about a self confident dog, a timid dog...?
There are x² possible combinations.

During training we are able to suppress/enforce certain behaviors, but we always have to deal with genetics.

Behavior is based on genetics ( you seem to think the same, otherwise you wouldn´t say WELL BRED ).


by susie on 19 November 2017 - 16:11

Just for clarifiation - I don´t doubt dogs are able to "think" ( different than humans, maybe in parts like a toddler ), but by far not abstract enough to develop self discipline or self control.

Any "thought process" of dogs is goal oriented only, and this "goal" always is a "direct" goal, based on the needs of the dog, be it food, love, prey, or anything else.
Border Collies and Poodles seem to be the most "intelligent" breed, followed by the GSD, although I realized even within our beloved breed major differences in case of intelligence.

by Centurian on 19 November 2017 - 16:11

Susie ... what you write in part has merit... yet some does not . Yes , there are many behavioral traits that are genetically based. However , every living entity is also a product of it's environment and the interaction with it's environment. On that note many trainers utilize the Premack Principle ' " if this .... then , that " . That constitutes that the dog has to have ability to think and problem solve. e.g if I sit... then I get a treat . So in answering you .. I am trying to give understanding to people new to the dog world...

Animals are thinking , feeling creatures that have intelligence , yes ? Intelligence invloves the ability to gather information , assimilate that information and use that information in tasks such as problem solving. Dogs are more than simple creatures that are preprogrammed like a robot . I still see many helpers working GS like we did 35 years ago. They all have methods ... I ever train methods , I don't talk methods. I teach individual dogs in what they are capable of learning and doing. In accordance to what they think and what they feel. Not by : we do this and we do that ...

But here is where i can get in agreement with you : On many occasions I have discussed intellignece in the GS with my SV Judge friends. Now this is subjective, I cannot prove this, but in 30 ++ more years in the GS World , I have empirically seen this. Comparing the SL to the WL [ and I have had both ] and the selective breeding , I have come, from my experience and observation , that is due to the loss of the so called working traits through selective breeding in SL . I think because the WL have retained/preserved more of the innate working behavioral traits they tend to perform more on aninnate / instinctual basis. However that does not mean WL don't think and problem solve- they most certainly do . I see a qualitative and quatitative difference between the two line though. Similarily it does not mean that SL can't do any work . Again I see a qulitative and quatitative differnce her. Their processing is different . And that does not underscore that the GS should have good mentality and traits in order to be discerning.

Even the best working dogs. When we did pat downs in police training , as we did pat downs , we expected the dog to be discerning. If I wanted to test a dog for police work an aspect that I would look , is the dog's abiity to discern. And I did not like dogs that coudn't think . Because I would feel and would I think that what would go hand in hand with 'Control Problems' . [ which is a notion within this thread ].One matter I can;t stand is an officer not being able to control it's dog or having a dog dog with poor mentality. So Susie I often say dog taining is Ying and Yang. Opposites at times can have truth and in a discussion at times there is a bit of truth form differnt points of view.....

Ok - a very simple example of a dog thinking : In Sch we tach the dog to target the sleeve. We teach how , where and to exactly and properly place that sleeve for the dog to bite. BTW , years ago not doing this correctly resulted in many a GS snapping it's canine [ side note]. YThis does not make IPIO better or wosre than any other sport. It's a graet sport. However , this is far from the case in Ring sports. In french Ring the decoy/helper is ther actually to steal points from the dog , make the dog entering for the bite, miss. That means as the dog is in the process of appoaching in the entry of the bite , he has to THINK about how the decoy is moving , and having done that adapt it's trajectory to hit the target. In other sports as the dog is coming in the decoy will run around a barrel , again the dog , on it's way in , has to think and adapt attack. The atttcak is never the same target placed and presented to the dog , like a IPO sleeve. That is just a simple examle so that you understand.

by susie on 19 November 2017 - 18:11

So dogs that "can´t think" go hand in hand with "control problems" ???
That´s way too easy.
A lot of dogs are pretty smart, but their genetic drives override their "mind" in certain situations.
A dog that loves to hunt rabbits and doesn´t listen to its handler because of its genetic drives is not "stupid", but high in drive, and most often the result of bad training, too.
Personally I met smart working lines and I met smart show lines, out of my experience there doesn´t seem to be a difference.

A dog trying to get the "bad guy" in French Ring first of all shows learned behavior. It´s not about "thinking", but about effectiveness, the will to get the goal, and this goes along with prey drive, hunt drive, not to forget overall agility. This has not much to do with intelligence, sorry.
Sharks are said to be the most successful hunters on this planet, but there intelligence is not very pronounced...they tend to act out of instincts, and they do so very effective.

What I read out of your posts is, you don´t like "high drive" dogs, you want a dog that is able to "think" about its doing, not overridden by drives, medium in all aspects, and you don´t like handlers/trainers/decoys that push up drives but forget about the rest of the performance.

About the "methods" - my dogs are worked by "my" methods, every dog is different.
Some helpers are able to follow my thoughts - fine, some are not - they won´t work my dogs...

Guess that´s an American problem, not enough good helpers within one area, and the handlers most often not knowing what´s the most effective kind of training for their dog.
This combination must create conflict.

by susie on 19 November 2017 - 18:11

double post - sorry
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 November 2017 - 18:11

As for crittering rabbits or other animals.

Search and Rescue Dogs are a good example for that. My very first Search Dog, Indra vom Sattelberg. She had an extremely high hunt drive and when she was searching it didn't matter whether there were rabbits, deer, hogs... she stayed on task searching for the subject.

I don't think that had anything to do with great training but everything to do with her hunt drive and mindset that she was working. Because believe me, I've got another female that would absolutely go critter rather than stay on task simply because her hunt drive and intensity for the hunt isn't high enough. No training in the world will change that fact. If there is a rabbit or squirrel, she'd rather go after that.

As for thinking dogs. I prefer dogs that learn how to think. That's why I love shaping. I love when a dog is offering me something. I love when a dog makes choices. I can show you two different type of dogs. An older dog that has never learned how to make his own choices, and our younger dogs, who absolutely learned that they can make choices. In training, it makes things so much easier. Of course we do help them along the way to make the right choices by implementing consequences.

Thats why we work him with food. So he can think. He's in a different mindset and he learned to bite for real. Once a dog learned to bite for real, things change 'a lot'.  That's why an extremely stable dog is so important to do this with and why I don't like overly defensive dogs a lot of times they lack confidence to make clear choices.

I also realized that to a lot of people he doesn't look 'real' because he's such a happy worker. Because of his temperament. He's a goofball. So some people don't take him serious, UNTIL they look him in the eyes during a bark and hold. That changes everythig. Because he's as real and very serious in his bitework. So people underestimate him because of his temperament and the way he's been worked but make no mistake... ;)

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