Just another Sport Dog - Page 35

Susie, nobody is saying breed for LE dogs, or that LE dogs are sacred cow, they are just saying a different type dog than the typical sport dog is successful more times than not. No more, no less!
You touched on environmental soundness and acknowledged that many sport dog never work outside sport realm in training. You said that was sad, I think....my question is why if you go generations without testing for environmental soundness you don't start to lose it, like you say you lose abilities if you don't test/title your stock. You can't have the principle work when it supports your position, and it not work when it supports others position. If you don't believe what you indicated about lack of environmental training over generations won't affect working abilities, I guess we can agree to disagree. If you do acknowledge that point, then you can understand the differences, just like you can understand the differences in show/sport GS. That's all that is being said, but I really understand. I know how many IPO show folks honestly believe the only difference between the sport lines and show lines is training or lack of on their part. Everybody else in the world see the differences, but it's hard for them to acknowledge....so I understand the pushback🌹.

Gustav, I am very well aware that club IPO dogs, only trained and titled in their personal comfort zone, are no measure, but as soon as you start to think about higher levels, it´s different.
You may say it´s still the same routine, but for the dog it´s about a lot of pressure, a lot of different surroundings, helpers, locations, unforseeable little things...In case you care, and know what to look at, you are able to see the differences pretty fast ( most often even at local level ) -
It´s about the result: As a breeder you either acknowledge the advantages and disadvantages of your dog ( in case of disadvantages = no breeding ) or you close your eyes and go on...It´s about personal morals.

I always tend to tell people: Take a look at the dog ( in the best case the parents, too ) - don´t believe in titles ONLY, they are the FIRST STEP, not more, not less, but very useful for the breed.
Everything else depends on personal likes and personal knowledge.

Duke, don´t tell me you do raise your puppies without any training/education ( be it bitework, be it nosework, be it environment ) - I won´t believe it. You have shown too many videos :)

Once again: sport vs LE What do you want to see in a "real working dog" ? The will to work? Yes Some prey drive? Prey only is not enough Some civil drive? Yes Hardness? Yes I need a dog who saty in a fight if I kick a dog on his head or somebody under influence from LSD/ heroine dog gonna fight with a dog or some one beat a dog with stick do we see this in IPO exercises NO Courage? Yes I need a dog who is ready for every situation on the street do IPO test this NO Fighting drive? Yes I need a dog who stay in the fight under extreme pressure and pain situations do IPO decoys test this with a softy stick, The whole IPIO courage test is a BIG The will to please? Yes but not a weak or soft dog waiting for every ball or food A good nose? Yes I I need a dog who stay on the track for hours an hours under all weather conditions different underground and distraction example in war zone do the IPO track test this NO Good health? Yes have GSD the perfect healt today NO to many problems An athletic body? Have the GSD the perfect anatomy ? the GSD coat is not pefect for high temperture Have Holland ever a IPO dog in duty or a wash out IPO dog- NO

Once again: sport vs LE What do you want to see in a "real working dog" ? The will to work? Yes Some prey drive? Prey only is not enough Some civil drive? Yes do IPO test civil drive NO Hardness? Yes I need a dog who stay in a fight if I kick a dog on his head or somebody under influence from LSD/ heroine dog gonna fight with a dog or some one beat a dog with stick do we see this in IPO exercises NO Courage? Yes I need a dog who is ready for every situation on the street do IPO test this NO Fighting drive? Yes I need a dog who stay in the fight under extreme pressure and pain situations do IPO decoys test this with a softy stick, The whole IPO courage test is a BIG joke IMO The will to please? Yes but not a weak or soft dog waiting for every ball or food A good nose? Yes I need a dog who stay on the track for hours an hours under all weather conditions different underground and distraction example in war zone do the IPO track test this NO Good health? Yes have GSD the perfect health today NO too many problems An athletic body? Have the GSD the perfect anatomy  NO? also the GSD coat is not pefect for  extreme high tempertures

Have Holland Police ever any IPO dog in duty or a wash out IPO dog?- NO

they don,t went IPO dogs for any reason

susie, my pups are only a fraction of the amount of dogs going to LE, and yes, naturally we socialize and prepare them, would be stupid not to

but again, all the socializing etc doesnot make an unsuitable dog, suitable

you cannot train a dog to hunt, be civil or have stable nerves, maybe shape it a little at best, the genetic buildup has to be there BEFORE training starts

Re Black Mals post:
And yet ...
And yet ...
As has been pointed out numerous times, dogs IN USE for LE purposes, in any country you care to name, have got many dogs with IPO titles behind them on their breeding; the dogs themselves may not have participated / might have washed out of IPO - but IPO isn't being avoided like the plague, is it ?, so it can hardly be that useless.
BM's last post (both versions) sounds like he'd be much better off switching breed completely.
Why concern oneself with the GSD when you can just get on with running Maligators or some other type ?

Hundmutter, who is saying that IPO is useless? ...False premise!
It's not a matter of avoiding anything like the plague, but answer me something, Hundmutter....Do competition IPO folks avoid Showlines IPO dogs like the plague????
Hmmmmm🤔

Its a matter that most vendors of LE dogs DONT look to IPO kennels for dogs in general. Now if you want to think that this is because IPO dogs are superior, thus validating the comments often made that LE dogs often are IPO rejects...then that's OK. You see LE folks aren't in an ego thing, so those comments don't offend me, like the reality that IPO dog is different from LE dog causes so much consternation in IPO. 

You know what is so funny, it's that the people who directly work and procure LE dogs are saying the same thing, and Folks grounded in other disciplines with peripheral knowledge of LE dogs needs and requirements are coming off so definitively about the lack of differences.

That may not be logical, but I understand. 

It's not the title. It's the path to the title that tells you everything you need to know.

There is a reason why the successful breeders prefer to use dogs they actually know versus dogs they've only seen on the trial field. You have to know the weaknesses of a dog in order to take the good and leave the bad behind. An Art that not a lot of people understand anymore.

Hundmutter: As has been pointed out numerous times, dogs IN USE for LE purposes, in any country you care to name, have got many dogs with IPO titles behind them on their breeding; the dogs themselves may not have participated / might have washed out of IPO - but IPO isn't being avoided like the plague, is it ?, so it can hardly be that useless.

 

Just because an IPO title is on there, are not grounds for an automatic disqualification.  The fact is that requirements for IPO (especially at higher level IPO venues) are vastly different from the requirements for strong LE dogs.  A superior dog with strong fight-drive, excellent environmental stability with strong nerves, strong hunt-drive, uncompromising hardness, strong defense drive with real (not fake) aggression and strong civil nature, may be a real misfit playing IPO routines for points, and thus might "wash out".  "Wrong dog" for that purpose ! The IPO type routines, requiring dogs that can score points, with perfect "dressage" have resulted in the selective breeding of dogs for that purpose, over several generations, such that those dogs no longer temperamentally resemble a GSD with the qualities needed for purposes like LE.

 

Hundmutter: BM's last post (both versions) sounds like he'd be much better off switching breed completely. Why concern oneself with the GSD when you can just get on with running Maligators or some other type ?

 

There are good lines still available within the GSD breed, with the aforesaid qualities.  A GSD might mature a bit slower than a Mali, but in around 18 months, an excellent GSD will "catch up" with the best Mali, while having other redeeming qualities that a Mali lacks.  No need to switch breeds.  Just don't look for such GSDs within focused IPO-oriented sport-dog breedings, just like one should not look for such good GSDs among show-oriented showdog breedings.

 

And yet all we get to see are Mals with an insane amount of possession rather than fight or aggression.