Breed to Win or Breed to Standard? What to do? - Page 2

Back to square one again with different interpretations of the standard !.

Whether working lines or show lines there is good and not so good on both sides. I have supported and bred with both working lines, show lines and combination lines for some years now for various reasons.  Combining good working lines with good showing lines can and does produce good middle of the road constructed dogs with excellent characters that have the ability to work too which I'm sure most knowlegeable breeders will agree that the middle of the road dog is as near to the standard as you will get. 

 I have noticed for some time now that there are more and more working bred dogs now creeping into the ' V ' grades. I have also noticed that the bottle neck of show lines is now being chased by the soon coming bottle neck of working lines.

If breeders study a bit more and think very seriously where the future of the German Shepherd is heading we may get somwhere !. ( but don't hold your breath on that happening !!! ).

I can see the only sensible way forward is to breed with the best bloodlines from both sides then everybody wins ( even the public ) !.

It s/d be the same thing because JUDGES whether in conformation or work s/d be judging according to the written standard but they simply have not been since the 80s. Why? Ask them - is there a judge in this messageboard?

Breed to the standard.  I want a CORRECT GSD.  I do not want a top winning show dog, I do not want a top winning SchH dog.  I want a sound healthy dog with correct functional working structure who is efficient in movement/work, has the correct drives, nerves, temperament, overall working ability, desire, courage, etc... Now if that dog happens to be a dog who does well in SchH, great :)  If he happens to be a dog who works well as a police dog, great :)  If he happens to be a dog who has "ok" scores in SchH, thats fine too. 

I was actually just talking about this the other day with my sister.  I am seeing a lot of German show line dogs who are getting extreme... heading the same direction as the Am line show dogs.  I hate this, I feel it is extremely incorrect and does nothing but hinder the dogs working ability.  If the German show lines/SV continue to move in that direction, I will NOT breed dogs who look like that in order to get show ratings/koerung.  I sure hope they dont go that direction and catch it fast... but regardless of what they do, I will continue to breed/strive for the correct GSD in all areas of work and structure. 

Some very good observations here.  Interesting to see how many people really feel beholden to the "Standard" vs. breeding to meet their own specific needs.

I would suggest by "straying" too far from the "standard" to meet a specific need you risk losing qualitites of the GSD and can in effect damange the breed.

Begs the question if there should be a BSP and a BSZS contest?  To get the breed to the pointy of consistency of what one can expect of the average GSD pup, there should only be one common test.  One common goal.  That would be the GSD that is correct, appealing and able/capable.

Would anyone want a GSD that is only correct?

Would anyone want a GSD that is only able/capable?

Would anyone want a GSD that is only appealing?

Perhaps able/capable and correct would be enough?

Looking at the diversity of dogs (eg German, American, UK English, UK Middle of the Road, German Working, Belgian Working etc) that various breeders consider to be fitting the Standard, it is obviously very open to individual interpretation.  All these types can win in their own camp, but get short shrift in any of the others as each type has it's own typical virtues and exaggerations.   It would seem to me that if you truly breed to Standard, you won't win in any camp.

Margaret N-J

I agree with" Do right and fear no one", the only way to make progress on this is have the BSP and BSZS combined into one show. The dog must be correct and high working to win the show or place high. The pretty dogs with sub temperament won't do well, and the hard dogs with non standard physical attributes won't do well. Instead the winner should be a Universal Seiger type dog whether it be show or working lines. If that type of show took the place of the other two ,within 10 years there would be no show lines defined by color, or working lines defined by hardness. You would have to BALANCE added to the breeding aims, to be able to do well, and the breed would improve considerably.

GSD2727, I agree with your assessment, but the point that nobody wants to deal with is the show dogs don't put themselves up, thus advancing this type of extreme. It is judges and breeders and they won't look in the mirror as long as 3000 to 5000 dollars or euros are being fetched for puppies!

I was hoping to get more breeders to input on their own breeding habits.

Question: Would you select a VA Sire or a SG rated Sire if the SG was actually close to the overall Standard due to having better drives and nerves?

I will answer for myself, in this example I would prefer the SG if it was better rounded dog overall.

I'm not a breeder, but if I was, I would breed to the standard - not solely for a physical appearance and not solely to produce a prey monster to win in sport. If you breed to the standard you are doing a service for the continuence of the breed. If you breed for you own interpretation of the standard, you are just being a selfish prick fixated on money, sport, influence or some other personal agenda. Breeding is a communial activity that effects more than one person and more than one dog.

I believe the standard is good but feel that the continual emphasis on the low croup may be causing a higher incidence of HD in these dogs - it looks so unnatural and sometimes it hurts me to look at it.  I would be curious to know the difference between the HD rates between show/work lines. 

Personally, I want a sound dog mind & body.  Balanced temperment, balanced drives who also meets the breed standard. 

As GSD2727 said it well, if the standard continues to show such extremes, then I would move away from it - bottom line is I want good dogs with good health & structure that can work well and live long.

Do I want them to win? - of course, who wouldn't, question is, do I want it for me or for them?  Is it for ego or for the betterment of the dog?  To me, it is for the dog to aspire to their optimum potential and show what a great dog I know they are capable of being and no other reason.