Sport to LE? Who's done this? - Page 10

Too bad Andor never sired pups. Often the really good ones don’t.

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Dogs definitely can be civil in prey only. Usually more common in Mals/DS's. Non classical prey drive. The dog see the man as prey, which is unusual because most dogs don't see people as prey, but a few do. Even if they don't some have such intense prey drive they will bite for real in prey.

i guess we just differently see meaning behind term "civil".
to be honest, i was confused when first time heard this description of dogs. we didn't have such term/description. 
as i said earlier - any dog able to bite. but biting dog, in my perception, doesn't means dog is civil, in the way as i see civil dog should be. 
of course dog will bite his prey. but if that prey driven dog don't have in him fighting drive, do you really believe he will continue his bite after resolute and overwhelming resistance from opponent?
and question arising from above sentence/question. if i have the dog with good fight/defense drive, why should i be in need of prey drive, on top of what he has?

 

emoryg, thanks.
quite too hyper and emotional for that age. but that is, to what a breed seems have been steered to.
also noticed, when decoy did make threatening moves by the hand, dog still hang on bite instead to react and intercept.

mrdarcy, I will plug more in as I get time.  I’m glad some people enjoy the stories.

Lobovonder, happy you enjoyed the posts.  I went opposite of you and came from sport to LE.  Good luck with the IPO and enjoy the retirement.  I sure am!  And keep us posted.  Be safe!

Valk, thanks for your feedback and sharing your knowledge.

Jesse, so glad you like the stories.  Ironically, my favorite memories of working with the police dog is not the actual calls, but going out testing, training and seeing them perform.  Especially the green dogs who are nothing but a clean slate when you get started.  Being able to find the right candidate and watching him come along is priceless.  Loved every minute of it. 

My favorite calls are not the one where the dogs bite the suspect.  Those were nerve racking at times, especially the last few years when it seemed everyone was armed.  The calls I enjoyed most were when the dog ran an exceptionally long track, in bad weather, through various terrain changes to end up at a suspect’s backdoor,  Or when the dog doesn’t locate anyone but he does locate an article that links the suspect to the crime.  This was especially true as DNA became more and more advanced.  You no longer needed an article with a fingerprint, body fluids left behind on the track were getting matched in the DNA database.

Below is a picture of K-9 Bojar.  He was a green dog, no papers, no tattoo, no chip.  Good hips, vet cert and an airway bill from the Czech Republic was all he had.  He kept a 100% conviction rate when taken to court.  Tough dog doesn’t even come close to describing his character. 

After committing an armed robbery of a convenience store on Halloween, the suspect fled on foot and was later picked up by a friend.  Bojar hit the track behind the store and started working his was into an industrial park.  We end up behind a building tracking along the landscape when he stops and bellies out.  I brush back some pine straw to find the mask seen in the picture.  DNA from the saliva led to the perps arrest.  This little dog was a machine and for over five years made a good name for himself amoung police officers and criminals alike.  

Lol@ Gustav's post. Funny stuff.

Makes me think about something funny inside the sport. Almost everyone in the sport wants their dog to carry the sleeve and hold it calmly after it is slipped. People worry about it if they don't.peopke work on it. They don't want them taking it to the ground to chew it etc. I'll admit Im guilty. Then I heard something funny from Ivan. He basically said, why do I care what the dog does with the sleeve? Helper isn't gonna slip it in a trial, anyhow.

Like you said. A bad guy in real life won't have a sleeve.

Emoryg - thanks for your great contributions to this thread, your recounting of dog call-outs are awesome.    I really like Andor's sire side of his ped, but I am not as familiar with his dam side.   I remember hearing talk of dogs like Bungalow, Korbelbach, Maineiche way back when they were influential in the schutzhund scene, and before I really knew all that much about the GSD's as I had Mals at that time.

Emoryg  says:  Especially the green dogs who are nothing but a clean slate when you get started.  Being able to find the right candidate and watching him come along is priceless.

Although I didn't select any of the 'green' dogs that I worked with in the K9 class, this is what I really enjoyed about working the new K9's.    Seeing them progress and gain confidence and become strong against the man, the increasing bond they developed with the handler, and the handler's increasing confidence in and admiration for the dog.   It was awesome when an exercise turned out really well, and the handler was pleasantly surprised by what their dog was doing - especially in the building searches.    Watching the handlers learn to trust their dog's nosework, and work in harmony with their dog was wonderful.     After a strong session with the dog in the bite-work, sitting exhausted (and coming down from the adrenalin rush) with the handlers and discussing what we saw and what we can do next time to advance the scenario/exercise - all these things were very gratifying and why I enjoyed doing my part.    I learned a LOT from the K9 officers, working their dogs in a way that was different from sport but shared similar fundamentals.    I gained so much knowledge and had so much fun - it was a great time of my life.

 

 

Vito andolini: A bad guy in real life won't have a sleeve.

Prager: Even though the thread degenerated away from the original topic I will ask yet one more time. Since Vito is right when he says A  bad guy in real life won't have a sleeve. then why do trainers insist on teaching police dogs and PP to target the sleeve? And then teach the dog not to target the sleeve. In light of the facts that there are techniques which from get-go teach the dog to target the person and not the equipment to me such approach is inconceivable.  

Please take a note that the operant word is "target".
 

Gustav: . Bottom line is the way dogs are trained today is working in vast majority of cases, and the exceptions don’t justify the change of things over the majority of success.

 

Prager: this is the biggest cap out which, ignorant, jaded, arrogant, lazy trainers use and it's nonchalance makes me livid. .....because of attitude like this PEOPLE DIE, dogs DIE, and bad guys get away and even POTUS may get endangered, not speaking of officers and family handlers of Pp dogs. You say "in the majority of cases"  it is not so. Really!? Well, tell this to the ones who have a dead or injured family member or a dog. What number of dead people or injured, and endangered people and dogs is OK number and which number is too high so that it will justify better training? 

This immorality is akin to car companies who knowingly continue to manufacture faulty brakes and rather pay on law suit settlement than to deal with the cost of the recall.  

There is another video of a man violating space of White House which I am posting below. The ELITE SECRET SERVICE (!!!!!!!!!!!!) dog is trained with these inadequate, illogical methods who work "MOST OF THE TIME"  and you will see as he gets slight glancing kick which barely made a contact and dog runs and second dog hast to save a day. This is a dog which supposed to protect    THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!!!!! I know that Gustav is a respected member of the forum and I respect him as well, but I do not respect what he is saying in the sentence above. BTW here is a video of elite dog failing. Please note that it is the same type of failure like in the Albuquerque John Boyd shooting video which I have posted on this thread previously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKa6tJlCiXc

I hate to even imagine how many situations like the ones on the 2 videos are not on the video and are swept under the rug in name of the: "Bottom line is the way dogs are trained today is working in vast majority of cases, and the exceptions don’t justify the change of things over the majority of success."

 Yes, the bottom line is right!!! Let people die or get injured  - it is cheaper that way.

 

BTW: And I am not that sure about the so-called "vast majority of cases" either. This thread is mainly about dogs in their first street situation where just about ANY K9 handler will tell you that you do not know what the dog is going to do the first time in street action. In my book, such training of dogs is not just irresponsible but it is borderline criminal. IMO if you train with INTENTIONAL failure index build into the training technique is wrong. IMO training should aim for a system which does not have a failure index in it. Because not unlike as in these training techniques with a bulid in failure index in training for real life build in failure index is not a viable option. Or is it?  

 Eh,.... don't  get me started.  

Don’t worry Prager, I won’t get you started, because when posts start using the adjectives you use to describe trainers or training, I usually exit and let folks figure it out for themselves. My thoughts or training may be the adjectives you describe, but it works, makes sense, and people still desire my ways and thoughts. We can agree to see things differently, fair enough?

Btw Folks on forum....I actually handled a dog that helped protect the President of the United States in 1975 in the Army when President Ford made visit to Fort Bennining, Ga. I also got personal handshake and Thanks from him ....Doesn’t prove anything, just thought it funny. You want to talk about some serious stuff, you have to be in on the secret service briefing prior to appearance of POTUS....they are literally serious as heart attack....anyway, you folks get back on topic.....I’m outta here.

Valk,

Civil simply means a dog will bite a person not wearing equipment. A dog always knows if there is equipment involved, even with a hidden sleeve. There are plenty of dogs with very high prey and high fight that are not that defensive. Usually seen more in Mals/DS's. Defense is not bad if it is forward and confident, but if lacking and is a large part of a dog's drive package the risk of flight is greater. So civil and aggressive do not necessarily have to go hand in hand. If a dog has enough drive (prey drive, bite drive, frustration aggression-not defense) he can be very civil and remain in the fight. The value of prey drive is using it to teach a dog the fundamentals when he is in a state of mind to learn rather than being stressed. Once he has learned the fundamentals, pressure can be added and the dog is taught how to turn the pressure off and then it progressively increases.