The virtues and weakness of present show lines. - Page 7

Good post Rik :)

I do agree that there is more than just overangulation contributing to sickle hock effect.  THe extreme sloping topline that doesn't occur so much in the Am dogs, at least not in movement, but does in the German.  I don't get to see many GSD show dogs in the flesh these days but from what I have seen, and from videos, I do think this is where the sickle hock problem is most prevelent.

A good article on the detrimental effects of sloping topline, with reference to sickle hocks, here (cached) http://tinyurl.com/clhp3b7

While searchinf for that link, I've stumbled on a great post from Preston.  Hope he won't mind me pasting here - 

Speak, my views on GSD sidegait are based on slo mo recording at 1/1000 sec.  Some years back I acquired a special digital high speed video recorder and  special slow motion software to analyze movement frame by frame at 1/1000 sec. 

What is obvious with 1/1000 slo mo is the actual force vectoring, muscle flexion and relaxation, power transmission, etc.  What is easily seen under slo mo not seen typicaly without it is how the rear drive can force the GSD upward due to croup being too steep, and how too much roach can cause a curvilinear transmission of power in some cases along the curved back, with the result being the front (at the topline x the withers) drops instead of staying level.  One can actually see the muscles and ligaments of the back ripple and relax as power is transmitted from the rear.  The longer the croup, typically the more rear muscling available to provide more rear push holding all other things equivalent.

Sometimes this dropping in the front is caused by factors other than steep croup and  roach combo, sometimes a product of bad back, lower thigh a bit too long, lack of opening up at the rear hock, defiicient range of motion in the rear, etc.  Most GSDs that have an imbalance range of motion between the front and rear legs, attempt to compensate for this and balance it out.  Some do this with a slight hitch in the rear appearing like a slight limp or HD.  Some attempt to lift and hold the front pads a bit (like a trained saddle bred horse). 

One thing that shows up much more clearly on slo mo is the occasional rumba above the pelvis in highly motivated movers that just can't balance their front and rear for whatever reason.  The best movers slo mo have the least wasted motion (best balance between ront and rear range of motion), the smoothest power transmission, the most level backs, the shortest backs, a lot of dynamic angulation (different than static angulation which is the apparent angulation when standing and walking or pacing--also equivalent to actual range of motion at full gait at both ends).  The most interesting movement in slo mo which is highly incorrect are the GSDs with long backs, long lower rear thighs (sickle hocks that won't open up), long steep croups (interesting that this combo provides extreme drive and a long stride in the rear even with the "locked hock" but this tires the dog out quickly since it is not efficient and is usually accompanying by lifting and holding of the front pads to compensate for the extreme rear drive--for a short distance in a small ring this can appear uimpressive). 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/bulletins.read?mnr=193658&pagen=7

Thanks Pod & Rik, intelligent posts, thanks for the links too.

Ibrahim

I added the following to another thread and now after reading this one feel it is equally relevant.

"I've seen some dogs which have fine structure and impressive speed but more often than not it's achieved with much grim determination, pounding of the front and "knitting needle knees" whirring around at the rear.

I'd much rather see a balanced, athletic dog with, dare I say it, grace/finesse in their movement, at half the speed. You can also be sure that such a dog will be able to maintain this pace over greater distances and varied surfaces. Could you imagine the former attempting such speed across a ploughed field or a muddy track chewed up by horses hooves?

For me, I often think the dogs with initially the least to see in their movement (& stack) probably have the best."

One important thing that can often get overlooked in discussions regarding gait, and I am as guilty as anyone of doing it, is that the structure is connected to a "real" hound. A real hound that has a brain with drives and hence expression both of which make a great difference to the movement. You only have to watch & compare your own dogs when just ambling around and when they've picked up an air scent or seen a distant critter.

As for the the weakness of present show lines I always think of size and allied to that athleticism. I find many of of today's dogs, especially the males, just too big and, oh I don't know how to say it... cumbersome? They may well be within the standard but to me they don't have the muscle and dryness you would expect of an athletic working dog.  Again they may have fine movement in the gait but at all other speeds don't display this athleticism - it's often wise to look at a dog both inside and outside the ring to get an idea of this. 

AandA

Couldn't agree with you more AandA.  I would add that the heavy build that has become fashionable over the last decade or so, does contravene standard in that height:depth proportions are incorrect in many instances, with chest depth exceeding 50% of total height.

 
 Hi ,
 This is a great thread.

 Ibrahim and others have really enlighten and created
awareness of the virtues and shortcomings of our G S D's.

 As for me, our dogs come from selective breeding,
and many of the top dogs are so dominant that they are bred
for their strengths,. i e. temperamant, type, size,toplines, Fr &Hind angulations
Heads,Positions of Upper arms & Croups etc.
The upper arm and croup was a problem the world over, today the top dogs
have improved on this.
The head and muzzle needs improvment,
as the bite will be affected,if we do not take care.

The best place to seek info on a particular dog is the SV's Stud book,
The show critique, Progeny parade comments
 and the G S D  breed Wardens in Europe.

Can someone Show me how to get to the S V Stud Bk. on the S V site.

 Thank You

Aanda,
loved your post about the brain of the dog.
Our present day dogs are too heavy and large to have the stamina, and when the body tires the brain stops working.
I remember seeing a video of Palme Wildsteiger Land herding sheep at the age of ten. That video was taken in the mountains in summer and she was doing what she had done all day long and all her life!
She was dam of two Siegers.

Any of our present day dogs can do that?

They are too heavy, too large and too loose to emulate that type of work ethic at that age. They are over angulated with second thighs a mile long and have such small hindquarters that there is no propulsion.

We breeders need to breed correctly without paying attention to incorrect dogs whatever titles they have won.

 Hi,

 Please remember that I'm still a student of the breed.

 We have in this thread mentioned the shortcomings in the breed,
  which I agree.
 When we critique a dog ,we always highligth the virtues ,
 as such can we mention the strong points as well

 All dogs have their strength and weaknesses ,since  its in their genetic makeup
 they can't help but produce it.

 My point is , we should  discuss the dog and its bloodline ,which is contributing
 the good and not so good to the breed as well.

 Like the critique of the progeny groups in the main shows in various countries,
 for these are given,by breed surveyors and judges,who are experts in the field.

 May those in the know of the various bloodlines,enlighten us please.
 
  Thank you