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by darylehret on 18 June 2009 - 14:06
"an unfamiliar environment lowers the dog's stimulation threshold and he will feel defensive sooner"
~Armin Winkler
Thresholds are action/reaction points for just about anything, but aren't necessarily triggered by everything. While maturing, my Tiekerhook dog would lunge at anything that moved. For example, someone casually walking by swinging a leash would inadvertently trigger his prey instinct, and he'd lunge at it. Required a lot of ready alertness on the handler's part. Same dog could care less about the cat zipping under his belly while he's finishing his evening dish. Or, the crack of the whip would instantly snap him into defense, other stimuli not as much as fast. By the time maturity is reached, they'll have been exposed to a lot of these things, and can consciously adjust their reactions accordingly to the behaviors you've designated to them as "approved".
by Held on 18 June 2009 - 16:06
you know i love when people make a certain dog more then what it is.now i love Zedane i think he is a great dog. and as i said before i will never take anything away from a dog, but i will take anything and everything away from a human.so let's see some one here said that Zedane progney is not for pet homes,are you fucking kidding me?of all the progney of Zedane since he has been in the States can you please give me the percentage of how many puppies went to working homes and ectually working and what they have accomplished and how many went to pet homes.
This dog achived a lot when he was in Europ and you can see his progney there.frankly i think those Europeans do huge diservice to the breed and to these highly accompolished dogs for what money ,because these dogs come here to die and achieve nothing.so all great dogs that come to North America they achiev nothing.at least nothing of value.have a nice one.
by VonIsengard on 18 June 2009 - 17:06
by Held on 18 June 2009 - 17:06
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 19 June 2009 - 02:06
However, I am very good at reading people, have been all my life, so transfering that to the dog world has not been very hard.
Anyway...
amysue:
1) "The "reaction" can be broken into 3 main parts." Ok, fair enough, let's break it.
2) "First, is the alertness, or the threshold needed to cause any reaction." - Yes, true. But, what kind of a reaction are we talking here? Say, there is a dog behind the fence and the meterman or a mailman or a jogger approaches on the street... There is a difference between a barking, lunging frenzy and cobra like stare directly in the eyes targeted like a laser and sizing the "target" up as well as difference with a fence charger all guns blazing and a dog standing tall, tail half erect, looking directly in the eyes and barking a deep, chesty bark, rhytmically.
3) The second part would be the intensity in which the dog reacts." Okay, but again, what triggered the reaction? There is a difference between a squirrel or a cat in the yard that the dog is "gonna get" or a car honking 3 streets down in the distance that sent dog in a high alertness state.
4) "This can be influenced by the amount of energy the dog has on a particular day and at a particular time. More energy = more reaction." - Partly correct. A strong and confident dog is never "tired" to defend itself, or "don't feel like it",, if directly threatened, he always feels like it, it's just there.
5) Also, equally important to all you and I wrote - how does the dog "recover" immediately after the "target" or "threat" or whatever caused the reaction?
RDH:
"I see too many gsd though but they are american lines few german...haven't seen a working line gsd in person." - I had no idea you have never seen a working GSD dog in person. When you see one let me know your thoughts and impressions.
I would also strongly advise you to speak with MIke Diehls. Besides being a top Schutzhund competitor, he is a working Police K9 guy. Crapload of experience and no bullshit. You will get a no bull answers from him. Interestingly also, he is a very quiet, serious guy, not a macho cop type at all. Ask him all the questions you desire and then take it from there. You also have to understand that Schutzhund is a GSD turf, while French Ring is specifically designed for a Malinois. GSDs do compete in it, but that is Mali turf.
Dogsrules: - That is sad about those Malinois dogs you are writing about. I very SPECIFICALLY do not tolerate ANY aggression towards children EVER. Adults... well, if it's not a helper, look for the cues from me. I say this with a straight and serious face - I would strangle the dog I own and love on the spot or euthanize him that very same day if he even glances in a wrong way at a small child. Everything else, including other dogs and adult humans and besides prey animals, like squirrels and stray cats, flushing birds in the backyard or a park etc... - look up to me for further instructions.
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 19 June 2009 - 02:06
I also have a lot of respect for Nate Harves you mentioned who breeds with www.sportwaffen.com kennel. Never met the guy - don't need to, I know most I need to know by seeing his website, watching videos and reading his articles. Good guy as well.
AandA:
"I do have a follow up question mind, it seems from the discussion that thresholds are pretty much genetic but is it not possible to increase a dog’s threshold(s) via good training/familiarisation or decrease them via bad training/mistreatment?" - Yes, it's possible , kinda, sorta to SOME degree. But, I beleieve, if you change the envinronment, or change something "in the routine" so it's competely new, the dog will revert to its core, back to what he has inside himself.
And Zidane Haus Sevens is in Alabama, not Georgia. He is close to 9 years old now, still all TNT with pointy ears.
Now, I am done with this thread, I can't add anything anymore, I believe.
by olskoolgsds on 19 June 2009 - 04:06
RDH asked for a definition of "Nervy". They wanted to know a precise, accurate definition of this term. Now I am not being smart by this but I am not aware of a doggy dictionary that gives this term an exact definition that all will agree on. This is what I was referring to when I said that someone or some authoritive organization should come up with uniform definitions for terms. This is the problem as I see it.
KCzaja wrote, when I think of "nervy" I think unstable, over reactive....................................... KC gave a definition that they "think" defines "nervy". I am not disagreeing with KC but this is exactly what my point is. Everyone has their idea of what nervy is, but no one has an exact definition that everyone can agree on. RDH asked for a definition. For this reason I refused to offer one, as it would only be my opinion. Now I know what I believe nervy is, or what it means to me, but that does not answer RDHs question. We all have opinions, that's all.
Adi was the first to respond with, In very general terms TO ME, it means low threshold to stimuli, (any stimuli)
Again, I am not disputing this definition and I respect the fact that Adi prefaced it with " TO ME ". My response to this was that I do not believe that low threshold is always a negative and on and on.
The point being, it appears that you have decided that anyone that has a different view of "nervy" is whacked as you said "I have heard it all now" in referance to someone that may have spoke favorably about "nervy". If, as you say, Adi had it right in the first place and should not have buckled under to these "goof balls", then I guess you are agreeing that nervy is defined as low threshold. Again, nervy is not defined by anyone, it is a term that means different things to different people and THAT is the question that RDH asked. I do not care what term you are talking about, you will get different definitions on them. Take Hard, Sharp, Courageous, Bold, whatever, you will get different opinions. In fact, many terms we use with dogs are not even attributes that can be attributed to dogs. They are human charactoristics that involve motives and careful reasoning, yet we hear them all day long. I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to bring some clarity to this discussion, and hopefully keep it civil. Seems that us dog people have a hard time doing this.
RDH, hope this did not add more confusion to your thread. I believe in critical thinking, not just running around throwing out terms without understanding or looking at how different charactoristics formulate the total dog. Good luck
by mahon on 19 June 2009 - 05:06
My personal opinion is I think when they wanted German Shepherds that had the Intense ball and prey drive they brought in a few too many nervey dogs.
I like the dogs with more defense and a little less prey. They seem to be less ADHD. They can focus and dont let the wind and leaves, and the clicks and clacks raise much more then an eyebrow. But the more pressure they get the better they like it. And they can't seem to find a reverse in their gear box.
I'm fine with dogs that dont score 97-100. They are not as eager to please and have a little more independence about them.
Zidane is one dog that took the exception of having high drives with out being ADHD and that is why I own a daughter of his.
She is only 11 months but very intense and also without a reverse. However in the wrong hands she could be dangerous. She is that intense!!!
My advise is know what you can handle and get someone that knows dogs well enough to help pick one that does not exceed your needs or abilities.
And remember weak nerves = Weak heart!!!!
Man or beast when suprised, one of three things, Fight, Flight or Freeze!!!!
Just my thought's, mahon
by RDH on 19 June 2009 - 05:06
Dogs rules--yeah those are the two kennels I have in mind since they are close (mike and Nate). I spoke to Molly several of times through email, not inregards to puppies. Matter of fact I emailed her and she hasn't responded yet...still waiting. Yeah, I don't want a nervy dog that lashes out at everything or everyone. I don't want to have a liability on my hands especially for this will be my first working dog for sports/ppd. I possibly would like to get a service title on the dog to so...yeah i can't have a unstable dog period!!! BTW, that 11 mo. female you mention if I'm correct is owned by Dr. Barb Eichman in Indiana. She has a video posted here and on another dog forum I seen.
darylehret-- Tiekerhook dogs are nervy (unless they're Molly's)---why do you say that? Why does it have to be Molly's? I thought if tiekerhook produces nervy dogs the trait will pass to offsprings and so on down the generation. How is Hutch? (i read the above but will like to hear more) When you breed him and a female how do the pups turn out? Do they tend to be nervy? Are molly's dogs breed so many generations back from tiekerhook that the nervy gene is bred out? (if that makes sense)
ADI--I got a feeling I will be getting my working GSD before I can watch a few work on the training field near home. I know I'll see them work at the breeders I visit. Its good to hear positive things about Mike. Trust me I have tons of questions for him when i go visit....he might have to kick me off the property...lol Yeah, I know french ring is a Malinois turf but I'm determine to get through the sport with a GSD. Koos said some of his dogs do compete in french ring that is why I started inquiring about his dogs. I can't find breeders here that dogs compete in french ring. Although one lady did email me personally( shes a VET) and her showline gsd she purchase from Germany competes in French ring believe it or not. He does have a FR title. That is the only person I know/spoke to in the states who has a FR titled gsd and its a SHOWLINE ...my mouth drop to the floor. I wonder why Zidane is not for outside breeding...?
Olskoolgsd--I like hearing everyone thoughts especially the ones that work with dogs alot. It gives me a good I deal putting things together. Your link you gave was helpful...reading each section step by step makes sense. You do make a point you should look at the dog as a whole as well as certain qualities. I think anything that has to do with dog training and methods in general will always have controversy. Everyone has their own opinion about dogs in general. I notice going to a few training facilities that trainers argue back and forth about whose right. I don't argue I just listen and try to learn the material and gather my own thoughts at the end. Actually, I can't argue because I never trained a sport/ppd or titled a dog in my life. One thing I have done is alot of research and observation instead of just jumping into something with out any knowledge and guidance.....with that being said
Thanks everyone for your input it has been helpful...I don't think I'm confused by peoples responds...I just have to witness it first hand to get the idea behind the term.
by RDH on 19 June 2009 - 05:06
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