breeding - Page 4

out of an untitled dog, $500-$600 is a fair price for puppies. as long as the pedigree's and health tests are there to support the price.  This is generally what I would charge out of an untitled bitch.  Hell,  I've asked this price even out of titled dogs,  just to place the puppies into homes instead of keeping them till they are older.

some breeders adv on here asking $1500-$2500 for pups out of untitled parents. and sometimes even out of crap lines.  If John Q public wants to spend that for a pup,  so be it.

I have no problem with you raymond,  but you seem quick to judge people and to tell them how things should be done when you yourself do not have much experience in the matter.

Well I thank all for puttin up with me. Allow me to make a comparison if you please. I thought and never expected my introduction to purebred gsd and dog sport to be as disillusioning as it has been. Well you could say that I expected a pleasant sexual experience being a virgin to dog sport but find that I was violently raped and all my pristine ideals and dreams are becoming  nightmares. Well I know that it is not a perfect world but one would assume there is some resemblance of fair play. Perhaps I am just to nieve and trusting. but I will trudge on. when I took my pup for first time vet visit I was proud as peacock and completely satisfied with all guarantees  promised by the kennel. talking to the vet about it mentioned all the promises and guarantees my vet said "raymond they all make that promise and it is basically worthless cause they are praying upon your emotions and eventual attachment to the dog that irreguardless of the out come you more than likely will not return it. Well I explored that and was told " all that counts is that you love her and if you really want to return her a replacement would cost more money. And I have experienced first hand the backstabbing actions at conformation shows and listened closely to the stories told at the club events.   Not the dogs fault. But forgive me I just assummed that the sv had these rules set in place for the protection of the breed.   Oh well I will trudge on for my dogs sake. Thanks all I'll just keep my pie hole shut from now on.

Raymond, it is very unfortunate your first experience wasn't a pleasurable one. It is a very valuable lesson though, that many on this site repeat. NEVER BUY FROM A BREEDER THAT WILL NOT PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING, no matter how big they are. There usually is a reason for this. I have also learned that lesson, and believe me so have others too. but was fortunate enough it didn't hurt as much. just look on the bright side you lost your cherry to the "Wilt the Stilt Chamberlain" of the GSD world, and we know how he got that nick name, also the "Big Dipper", believe me there are many around that have gotten it up thier ARSE from this breeder, eventually it will bite their big ARSE.
best thing to do is learn from those around that have good info, and as far as breeeding Halo, enjoy her, learn from her, figure out what you really want to do with her. Just remember the shows are nice, but it is someones opinion, they are very corupt, and in the end what does it prove,  but that you have a pretty dog. Look at halo's sire. Very beautiful dog, but that is all, he is not or never was a top rated dog, anywhere. he did a very good job getting his title, high score but that is all. His VA rating means nothing was probably bought like everything else. He can't even reproduce, no interest most of the times they have to do an AI. Be happy you have a dog you love, enjoy, and sounds like you are happy with, no matter how unpleasant this whole experience has been. When it is time for her to be bred do your homework, figure out why you want to breed her and what you want out of the litter (type of dog you are looking for). then let your concience be your guide.

I hope that I can glean as much info as possible  from this site as you suggest. Ok  so sometimes I am an arse hole but my intentions are honorable.  maybe sometime soon I will meet some of yous at a club event and yes you can smack me around a little bit. will be following the posts and say thank you .

GUARANTEE ARE BUNCH OF B/S THIS IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK. BTW IF YOU GO TO GERMANY YOU WILL FIND OUT FAST THAT GUARANTEE'S ARE AMERICAN INVENTION.

If you have some dogs with great working abilities from untitled parents and you don't want them because of this alone, let me know.  I will kindly take them off of your hands.  I won't even charge you for my trouble.  For me, bottom line, I want the dog to do what I expect a working dog to do. For many years I worked  in a field that continually required more and more education and higher degrees.  The people got dummer and dummer, or is that dumber and dumber.

Ain't that the truth Terry! I'll be second in line right behind you with my hand open.

 

Raymond you are not wrong for your beliefs and/or thoughts and wishes.  There are others that feel the same way as you, self included.  There are many good breeders out there who do put the work and effort into their dogs before breeding them to ensure they are putting the best pups on the ground they possibly can.  It is my belief most people who choose to not follow the German standards for their dogs and breeding program are lazy and just in it for the money.  That is not to say there are not good dogs out there who are not titled.  I believe there are.  The problem IMHO is many breeders have too many dogs to properly train and title and the bitch is OFTEN under rated.  I agree with those who previously mentioned the bitch has a greater impact on the pups than the male.  It is proven that genes have less to do with a person or animals behavior than their environment in which they were raised.  There genes play a bigger roll in their coat, confirmation, genetic issues, etc.  This has been proven in many studies.  
 

 Many people let their emotions and love for their animal cloud the animals true value and over look the skin and health issues and breed them anyway.  Many people are simply not ethical these days, that is why you see so many issues people have with breeders these days.  It is everywhere not just the GSD world and not just about dogs.  If a breeder knows an animal has health issues in it's lines and there is a good possibility for it to pass those issues to innocent puppies to deal with the rest of their lives, shame on you.  Karma has a way of working it's way back to people both good and bad.  Ones reputation is important, it's the only thing you take with you when you're gone and speaks volumes for you while you're here.  It is hard to know who you are dealing with ask for references from previous puppy owners.  Ask on this board.  
Teri  
   

Thank you for your encouraging words Teri.  Not trying to beat a dead horse we still find people who would love to relieve me of my animal and take no compensation for their  efforts. . Wow shoud I also provide medical care and food for the next ten years?? Now please do not get angry.

Raymond, a lot of what divemaster has said is correct.  Enjoy your dog.  But remember, you did get it in writting, the dog can be replaced with one of equal value.    Therefore, another pup out of an untitled female.  The economics of it are simple, the emotions not.  Is your vet right that breeders "pray on emotions".  Yes and no.  I personally try and be as honest as I am informed, and being human, I also trust what I am told rather than check it out on my own, esp. when that informer is more experienced than I.

The economics of it are troublesome due to the emotional aspect involved.  Prices are based on the quality of the breeding, name of the kennel ect.  A good dog in and of itself is priceless to its owner on a emotional basis.  

There is a hard cold truth in the show ring.  Things go wrong (bad hips ect.) and the show person either has to harden their heart and replace the dog with one that is healthier or bites ect.  For many, this choice involves giving up the dog, for others there is no way they will give up the dog for another to compete.    I myself have just spent the last two years co-owning two females that did not pan out, since I co-own, I have no option but to re-home these two and start again.  My investment was equal to what you paid for a fully owned and I believe sound healthy dog.  (BTW, the breeding was natural, albert likes her ;)

I have seen this breeder replace a puppy with health issues without requiring the return of the original dog.  However, if there is not a problem with the dog, its not good business practice to take dogs back and replace with a higher end dog and then go to the expense of re-homing the original dog or lose the income.  It would be like a car dealer selling a manual transmission car, having the customer be angry about the downshifting, demanding an automatic and getting both cars for the price of  the manual.   Its hard to see that when a dogs life in involved.  It seems horribly cruel and cold.

This is the big delema of being a "professional breeder" and having it be your only income.  You have to protect yourself and your investment and not see the animals as pets.  Otherwise, you never make it.  On the other hand, the hobby breeder that treats the dogs as pets and members of the family, typically NEVER makes any money from breeding, if they are lucky, they break even.   Some get so wrapped up in the satisfaction of buyers that they are constantly replacing puppies even buying a replacment puppy to satisfy the customer that they go broke

I also think you need to understand the difference between the GSD Standard and SV rules for registration.  The SV merely limits registration of dogs from a mating from unproven parents (not titled).    The standard describes the apperance of the dog, identifies faults and recommends what traits should not be reproduced (not accepted coat color or length, missing teeth ect).  There are horror stories of puppies breed in Germany that are from untitled parents being sold to Americans as "SV registered", with "pink papers" where the papers never show up, and the AKC won't recognize the dog.   The SV rules also sends a breed warden out to cull litters of more than six (destroy the excess puppies or other wise remove them from the litter).   I don't know of too many american breeders that would follow that rule.

This world would be better if we had more clubs with good helpers to train us newbies and our dogs to HOT titles.  If all health screening and DNA screening for bad genes could be performed on the mating pair and all resulting puppies are the won