Not bringing back the dumbell - Page 3

Hi , Do the frontal first then work her on bumbell 2 things at the same time will cofuse her, B Flinks has a very good dvd on build drive and focuse , you might want to see that first ,Ask members of your club if they have the DVD .it should be several topics on his tapes in this site so search it out .

my club does only the force, they tie dog inside garage and choke them. Or to a tree tie and choke til they take dumbell.
I don't have any resources except dvd, or someone with motivational experience. I have to drive 3 hrs to get to a positive
method club:)
I think I will start doing that next week again, just a hassle.

Sorry to hear that , let me know if you need more help ,I have Czech female very hi drive and very sensetive so I had to train her without any hard corrections she got SchH 3 before 3 years old and now I am home with backpain .don;t give up Just think before do anything and layout a plan step by step and having those video will help ,if money is problem email me privetly and I will show you where to get them at good price or next to nothing

Matthews , I saw that you mentioned do the dumbell with ball under chin ,NO if you do that she will drop the dumbell as soon as she sees the ball . Do frontal that way WITHOUT dumbell but as for dumbell put the ball inside  your front jacket ( in your chest )call her to bring as soon as she sits VERY SLOWLY pull the ball out ........

ah, ok. I will do some of that this week.
It like she gets to me and drops it if I cut her off or she gets near me.
I think I need to work on frontal work more.
thank you.

you need to forget the retrieve for a while.

First you need to teach a hold, then you need to teach a position seperately, then you need to put it together.

I teach hold sitting in my living room with a PVC pipe and food.    I teach fronts with food, then with tugs and balls and play.  Then I have them hold other things they like and hold anyway like tugs and balls and I teach hold is clamp down.  So when I Say "hold" i can pull on the object and they clamp down, then and I Mark that and reward with all sorts of things.  food, game of tug, throw another ball etc.  

Then they get to "hold" the dumbell and we play with that, lots of "hold" and tug.  No leash pops, light or hard, why use those on a dog that is already avoiding something?  If you're not experienced and willing to take that to the degree it needs to be taken, meaning they only way to avoid the punishment is to not avoid the position or the dumbell, don't even mess with it.  It's only adding to the problem. 


Then I move into the "retrieve" portion and use a ball or tug to reward, much like the Flinks vids. 

You say your dog isn't a "clicker" dog.  Not sure what that means, but i've found marker training to be the easiest, quickest, and most dog and handler friendly way to teach a good retrieve.  I blows me away that not everyone teaches it that way.  You can always use force later, once they understand, but at this point your dog doesn't.



edited to add:  and don't get frustrated or upset.  If you're are not in a great f'ing mood, do NOT try and teach your dog a frontal position.  She's already avoiding you.  So either it's force her to deal with it or back up and make it fun.  She has to learn that being in front isn't a bad thing, the she has to learn that being in front with a dumbell is great too, meaning you aren't going to take it every time and if you do, you have something else for her to do she likes more.  If you're having a bad day, your dog will pick up on it and will not want to come to a front position, just like now.

Thanks zdog.
Yeh, I don't want to use any force for dog.
She doesn't understand what it is I am wanting.
I am going to work on the holding again this week.
I am hoping that I can bring all of that together.  I think I am trying to rush into it. I need to back up
I say she is not clicker because I don't know how to use it A and B I have always used meat so why mess
up a good thing that she loves.
Maybe one day be good to find someone very good at clicker training.
I have no great trainer to train with so I am out on my own on this retrieve.
I shall keep trying.
thank you!

ok, i had a big thing typed up to introduce clicker training to you, but figured I suck at words and it made no sense to me, so I figured it would just leave you scratching your head. 

So i'm skippging some steps and this isn't the step by step from the beginning but do this.

Take a small piece of PVC or wood dowel about the size diameter of the DB.  I don't use the DB yet cause i don't feel like replacing them all the time cause they get chewed up teaching to hold and retrieve.

you say she'll take the dumbell, so present it to her (the PVC or dumbell if you want to use it) and when she takes it, say and excited "yes" and then give her the meat reward you always use.  she can drop it as soon as you say yes, it doesn't matter.  Do this over and over, 20-30 reps over the course of a few minutes and quit.

Do this for a day or two or three, till she shows enthusiasm when you bring out the pvc or dumbell and is willingly taking it from you.  Keep the holding short, i wouldn't even really make her hold it for more than a short second at first.  The idea is to teach her that putting her mouth on the DB is a good thing.

Once she does that willingly present the PVC or DB and have her take it and then start lengthening the time she has to hold it.  At first she'll want to drop it right away cause she'll be anticipating the reward you've been giving her.  that is ok and completely normal.  At this point cause she seems sensitive to you and in avoidance over the DB anyway, I wouldn't say anything when she does this,  Not an "no" or "ahh" or anything.  Just pick it back up and present it again and make her hold it for 2 short seconds, then an excieted "yes" and then present the reward.  

as the time gets longer, don't be in a hurry to go too fast, but don't stay at a few second holds forever either, she'll probably stop dropping it, but will mouth it, gently put your hands over her muzzle to stop it.  Don't get mad or frustrated, she'll most likely revert to avoidance cause that's why she knows.  my current dog gets a sharp no when she did that, but our relationship was different than the one you have now, so it's important that you stay in a good happy mood regardless of what is happening. 

anyway, when she stops mouthing for a second or two, another excited "yes" and then present your reward.  

you can work on this for a week or two varying the amount of time she has to hold it and calming any chewing.  Another little trick I like is to tug on the pvc or dumbell just a tad so they clamp down and then I mark.  That way i'm not rewarding for holding it loosely, it's always being gripped.  Not in a hard tug way, just some gentle bite pressure.  

your dog may give it to you if she sees you grabbing for it because it sounds like she's sensitive to that, not a problem, tie a small piece of fishing line to it and give  small tug on that, say hold, light pressure, and when she clamps to hold it, "YES" and reward.

in two weeks I bet you can present something say hold and she'll hold it nicely.  You're never taking it from her, you're always telling her when she's correct, "yes" and giving her a reward she really wants.

I forgot to mention that I do all this with the dog in a seated position, but if she's not solid or comfortable sitting, don't worry about it yet, let her stand for now.   WHen she understands "hold" you can have her hold and tell her to sit and she will.


Now to the front.  easy.  Get your food, put some in your fist call her to front with whatever command you use and when she gets there, "yes" and then present t

well it appears I lost the second half of my post. 


now I have ot remember what I said.  :(

anyway, it's ok to lure her at first if you have to and when she's in the front position you want, "yes" and then open your hand.  eventually you'll be having your hands at your side, she'll want to cheat that way or sniff your hands, do nothing, say nothing.  give her a chance to get her head back into a "front" position, then immediatly "yes" and present the reward.  

If her body is all jacked up i take a couple small steps backwards and make her follow into me till she gets the position correct.  at first anyway.  eventually if she doesn't come in straight and front, I start the whole thing over, but don't worry about that yet.  She needs to learn the concept first.  

So never say "yes" without rewarding, even if you say "yes" and you meant "no".  Still give the reward.  it's important the marker doesn't loose it's meaning, and you'll learn not to screw up as you go :)

never present the reward or reach for the reward while saying "yes" or before.  Dogs pick up on body language.  at this point you want the dog to focus on your words not movements.  So its "hold" ..... "yes".....pause...... reach for and present reward.  if the reward is already in your hand, it's..."yes... pause... open hand.  take a breath between the yes and the reward, then you won't screw it up, and trust me, everyone screws it up at first they're so anticipatory to give the reward they forget what they're doing.  Much like dogs :)  good luck. Hope this helps

zdog -

THANK YOU!

Will  you add this to the general articles section of this board.......see left below classified.......this is a great article............