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by steve1 on 02 February 2009 - 12:02
jletcher18
Who was the wag who says that SchH is so easy
If that is the case, tell him or her to get there butt over here and show us how it is done so easy
Wuzzup
you say you need to move pass SchH if you want a dog to reach its full Potential
How many Dogs have you trained from say 8 week old Pup to SchH 3
and then moved on past the so called easy grades of SchH 3
Steve
by Kreiger on 02 February 2009 - 13:02
Everyone wants to knock Schutzhund but in reality the bottom line is this------Schutzhund,PSA,Ring Sports and etc.,do not make the dog!! Good genetics,the dog itself and the person on the other end of the lead is what truly makes the dog!!!
Many people go to the Marines but only a few become special forces,others do clerical,some cook,some are janitors,but all are Marines!
Most of the people that are involved in other sports refuse to see that they are involved in just that,SPORTS!!!
If you and your dog are not active in Law Enforcement,Millitary,True Search and Rescue(not a dog trained to search for a pair of socks at home)than everything else is an extracurricular activity.People say PSA or Ring as if it's not a sport,sorry folks but these are sports also.
Bottom line is do what makes you happy,have fun while you are doing it and foget about the rest!!!!
Another good example is how many people do you see taking Karate going into the hood at night showing off their stuff???
For most it is a sport!!!!
Many people go to the Marines but only a few become special forces,others do clerical,some cook,some are janitors,but all are Marines!
Most of the people that are involved in other sports refuse to see that they are involved in just that,SPORTS!!!
If you and your dog are not active in Law Enforcement,Millitary,True Search and Rescue(not a dog trained to search for a pair of socks at home)than everything else is an extracurricular activity.People say PSA or Ring as if it's not a sport,sorry folks but these are sports also.
Bottom line is do what makes you happy,have fun while you are doing it and foget about the rest!!!!
Another good example is how many people do you see taking Karate going into the hood at night showing off their stuff???
For most it is a sport!!!!
by steve1 on 02 February 2009 - 13:02
Kreiger
You are correct, and as for Karate that is so, I trained for over 10 years in the sport until i got injured and that stopped it,
But i was not trained at a general club level,
Only by one person five nights a week for over 10 years no break
I was okay, got myself a good few awards, But do you know for many years not even my mates knew of that part of my life
For i never mentioned it, there was no need to and as you know when you are young you get into scrapes, except for one time i got around it without trouble, for there was no need to be but myself and i never had nothing to prove anyway, that is not the essence of the sport,
Plus it helped me out of a few more dangerous spots a few years later on in my life when i needed it most, so i am grateful for knowing it otherwise i may not be writing this now
Steve
You are correct, and as for Karate that is so, I trained for over 10 years in the sport until i got injured and that stopped it,
But i was not trained at a general club level,
Only by one person five nights a week for over 10 years no break
I was okay, got myself a good few awards, But do you know for many years not even my mates knew of that part of my life
For i never mentioned it, there was no need to and as you know when you are young you get into scrapes, except for one time i got around it without trouble, for there was no need to be but myself and i never had nothing to prove anyway, that is not the essence of the sport,
Plus it helped me out of a few more dangerous spots a few years later on in my life when i needed it most, so i am grateful for knowing it otherwise i may not be writing this now
Steve
by bgstout on 02 February 2009 - 14:02
John,
Another good question, how many posters are in the SchH 3 club?
Another good question, how many posters are in the SchH 3 club?
by 4pack on 02 February 2009 - 14:02
The below is posted on the PSA board and as far as I know, they are looking into many ideas how to add some scentwork in the near future....
While I was reading a thread on another board, it became apparent to me that PSA has no scenario at any level to test hunt drive or scent discrimination. In my opinion these are glaring omissions in a sport designed to test the working drives and abilities of dogs wishing to perform in real life situations including patrol work.
Coming from SchH, I have my own opinions about footstep tracking, how it is judged, and how it translates (or doesn't) to real life situations.
As far as hunt drive is concerned, I'm still not sure what the blind search in SchH is supposed to test. It is no more than a rehearsed OB exercise. The dog knows where the helper is and is even heeled right past him in the hot blind on the way out to the field. Then we wait to see if the dog will run a zig zag pattern that he knows is useless or blow off the handler and hit a bee line straight to the action. Can you really blame the dog? He's being taught to ignore his hunting instincts. In Ring, the blind search (I think I'm right here) is different in that the decoy can be in any one of the blinds and the dog just has to search until he finds. No set pattern, no prior knowledge, no useless OB. Much better. But why not design a scenario that tests both scenting and hunt drive that is unique to PSA? Our own cool test!
I saw this on a K9 Patrol dog competition some years ago. It was called the "Hot Box" scenario. Handler and dog are off the field out of sight. The field contains six shipping crates large enough for a decoy to crouch inside, with the top closed. A decoy takes up residence inside one of the boxes, and after a minute or two the handler enters the field waits at the side while he sends his dog to search for, and alert on the hot box. No visual or auditory cues for the dog. He is left to work on his own for a set time limit. I think it was three minutes. After this the exercise is marked insufficient. This is not as easy as it might seem as I think one of the dogs failed and another barely beat the time limit. The cool part is that the handler does not know where the decoy is and has to trust his dog alerting at the right box. This scenario can be made harder, as it was in this particular instance, for higher levels. Prior to the test people spent two minutes in each of the boxes so that they all contained some human scent. Only one actually contained a hiding decoy. There are ways that this scenario could be modified to include a bite or transport after the find. All very real life.
The biggest, and maybe insurmountable problem with this scenario is the boxes themselves. Shipping crates are quite expensive and not portable like blinds. Cardboard boxes are the answer. They are less expensive, more portable, and would work, but they would have to be weighted or anchored to prevent easy bumping by the searching dog or blowing in the wind. Rain would also be a problem with cardboard. Unfortunately I have not been able to find a vendor who supplies in any size large enough to accommodate a helper, except for maybe Cory D (sorry buddy) ;-) I would consider 48 x48 x48 the minimum.
Up until now have any of our titled dogs proven that the have adequate hunt drive and scenting ability? I think that the perception, by some, of PSA as a glorified version of local bite competitions would be greatly helped by a scenario similar to this that tests real drive and ability, and is judged in a fair consistent way. I have ideas about how to train this scenario, and would not mind doing it and video taping the process. I'm thinking about trying to train it regardless, just for fun. I'm perplexed that I can't find the boxes.
All of this is just my opinions, and ideas about how to improve our
While I was reading a thread on another board, it became apparent to me that PSA has no scenario at any level to test hunt drive or scent discrimination. In my opinion these are glaring omissions in a sport designed to test the working drives and abilities of dogs wishing to perform in real life situations including patrol work.
Coming from SchH, I have my own opinions about footstep tracking, how it is judged, and how it translates (or doesn't) to real life situations.
As far as hunt drive is concerned, I'm still not sure what the blind search in SchH is supposed to test. It is no more than a rehearsed OB exercise. The dog knows where the helper is and is even heeled right past him in the hot blind on the way out to the field. Then we wait to see if the dog will run a zig zag pattern that he knows is useless or blow off the handler and hit a bee line straight to the action. Can you really blame the dog? He's being taught to ignore his hunting instincts. In Ring, the blind search (I think I'm right here) is different in that the decoy can be in any one of the blinds and the dog just has to search until he finds. No set pattern, no prior knowledge, no useless OB. Much better. But why not design a scenario that tests both scenting and hunt drive that is unique to PSA? Our own cool test!
I saw this on a K9 Patrol dog competition some years ago. It was called the "Hot Box" scenario. Handler and dog are off the field out of sight. The field contains six shipping crates large enough for a decoy to crouch inside, with the top closed. A decoy takes up residence inside one of the boxes, and after a minute or two the handler enters the field waits at the side while he sends his dog to search for, and alert on the hot box. No visual or auditory cues for the dog. He is left to work on his own for a set time limit. I think it was three minutes. After this the exercise is marked insufficient. This is not as easy as it might seem as I think one of the dogs failed and another barely beat the time limit. The cool part is that the handler does not know where the decoy is and has to trust his dog alerting at the right box. This scenario can be made harder, as it was in this particular instance, for higher levels. Prior to the test people spent two minutes in each of the boxes so that they all contained some human scent. Only one actually contained a hiding decoy. There are ways that this scenario could be modified to include a bite or transport after the find. All very real life.
The biggest, and maybe insurmountable problem with this scenario is the boxes themselves. Shipping crates are quite expensive and not portable like blinds. Cardboard boxes are the answer. They are less expensive, more portable, and would work, but they would have to be weighted or anchored to prevent easy bumping by the searching dog or blowing in the wind. Rain would also be a problem with cardboard. Unfortunately I have not been able to find a vendor who supplies in any size large enough to accommodate a helper, except for maybe Cory D (sorry buddy) ;-) I would consider 48 x48 x48 the minimum.
Up until now have any of our titled dogs proven that the have adequate hunt drive and scenting ability? I think that the perception, by some, of PSA as a glorified version of local bite competitions would be greatly helped by a scenario similar to this that tests real drive and ability, and is judged in a fair consistent way. I have ideas about how to train this scenario, and would not mind doing it and video taping the process. I'm thinking about trying to train it regardless, just for fun. I'm perplexed that I can't find the boxes.
All of this is just my opinions, and ideas about how to improve our
by 4pack on 02 February 2009 - 14:02
sport.
What I like about PSA is they are OPEN to change and improvement, even if it means it may look as if they didn't have it perfect to begin with.
by 4pack on 02 February 2009 - 14:02
Again below is how change takes place in PSA, much easier than wrestling with the dinosaurs of SV or Sch USA.
Hello All,
As we close the 2008 and approach the 2009 season the time has come to re-evaluate the level 1 suprise scenarios. The Board of Directors has decided to change at least one possibly two of the Level 1 suprise scenarios for the 2009 trial season.
This year the decision has been made to poll the membership for ideas of a new suprise scenario for the Level 1. We are asking for membership input on the creation of the scenario. What do the members want to see as one of the suprise scenarios??? The topic is free to be kicked around the board however all ideas for the scenario MUST be sent to my email address to be considered. The idea is to give the membership a week or two to submit their ideas and I will draw up three scenarios from the input I recieve. The scenarios will be placed on the PSA discussion board to be voted upon by the membership. The scenario with the most votes will become the new PSA suprise in the Level 1 replacing the scenario with the rear transport.
This is the chance for the membership to have a SAY !!! The more input the better. If this goes well there may be more opportunities like this one in the future. Please keep it clean and make it a constructive thread. I look forward to seeing what the membership would like to see the scenario to be. Remember to be considered it MUST be emailed to my email address at (BLANK.EMAIL)
Make sure to spread the word so everyone gets a chance to give their input.
Hello All,
As we close the 2008 and approach the 2009 season the time has come to re-evaluate the level 1 suprise scenarios. The Board of Directors has decided to change at least one possibly two of the Level 1 suprise scenarios for the 2009 trial season.
This year the decision has been made to poll the membership for ideas of a new suprise scenario for the Level 1. We are asking for membership input on the creation of the scenario. What do the members want to see as one of the suprise scenarios??? The topic is free to be kicked around the board however all ideas for the scenario MUST be sent to my email address to be considered. The idea is to give the membership a week or two to submit their ideas and I will draw up three scenarios from the input I recieve. The scenarios will be placed on the PSA discussion board to be voted upon by the membership. The scenario with the most votes will become the new PSA suprise in the Level 1 replacing the scenario with the rear transport.
This is the chance for the membership to have a SAY !!! The more input the better. If this goes well there may be more opportunities like this one in the future. Please keep it clean and make it a constructive thread. I look forward to seeing what the membership would like to see the scenario to be. Remember to be considered it MUST be emailed to my email address at (BLANK.EMAIL)
Make sure to spread the word so everyone gets a chance to give their input.
by Mystere on 02 February 2009 - 14:02
The USA Sch III Club is not a "test." It just means that all the dog's titles (original I, II and III) are earned at USA trials. Many people also support other local clubs (USRC, AWMA, DVG and even Canadian clubs) and the titles earned there do not count for the Sch III Club. Most of the people I know who have titled dogs to Sch III, including myself, are not in the Sch III Club for precisely that reason.
by steve1 on 02 February 2009 - 15:02
My point in all this is just the one thing, someone says that the training of a SchH dog is easy or in so many words, another says why stop at SchH why not go on higher, as if the training of a SchH dog is so easy, that well trained dogs are ten a penny and i mean at national and world level
Whatever you do with a Dog and that means the Dog looking for a scent of an object or looking for a decoy
That dog has to be taught the sequence over a period of time to look for certain things
We know Dogs have a huge sense of smell but still they have to be taught in the right way to use that smell, so it is with the Tracking of a 12 or 16 week old Pup or even and older dog who has never tracked before it has to be taught the sequence of doing it
If this is not true then you may as well tell the dog to souk the track and then when it gets to the object in question expect it to lay down in front of itwithout any prior tracking experience
No, i am afraid it is not that easy, But if some think it is then many over here where i live and elsewhere in the dog sport are the dummies, and that includes myself
Steve
Whatever you do with a Dog and that means the Dog looking for a scent of an object or looking for a decoy
That dog has to be taught the sequence over a period of time to look for certain things
We know Dogs have a huge sense of smell but still they have to be taught in the right way to use that smell, so it is with the Tracking of a 12 or 16 week old Pup or even and older dog who has never tracked before it has to be taught the sequence of doing it
If this is not true then you may as well tell the dog to souk the track and then when it gets to the object in question expect it to lay down in front of itwithout any prior tracking experience
No, i am afraid it is not that easy, But if some think it is then many over here where i live and elsewhere in the dog sport are the dummies, and that includes myself
Steve
by Christopher Smith on 02 February 2009 - 16:02
If PSA really wants member input they should let them vote.
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