Grip and nerves. - Page 3

One other quick thought...

Why do you "out" her when you play tug?? At this point she should ALWAYS win to build her confidance. Just a small thing in the big picture but it can have very meaningful results.

Debby

Don't forget genetics here..Either they have a full grip or they don't.  You can only do so much to improve a shallow grip before a dog resorts back to it's genetics and foundation.  I am not saying you shouldn't continue to improve it but that some dogs have the natural hard full gripping behavior and some just don't.  Good luck with your dog

Karmen

Slamdunc's posts are excellent - I would follow his advice exactly.  Good job noticing, asking, and doing something about it before your pup is "screwed up".  She'll be fine. 

molly

Molly, thank you! 

Jim

Karmen,

You are so right the genetics play such a big role.

Paul

This bitch is overloading in defence. Failure to do any kind of work in this drive is evading the problem. Good work by the handler and helper in very short and low drive work  in defense will help her with this drive problem. She needs to build confidence that her big sharp bark has power.  Yes, much  prey work is needed to BALANCE her. Somebody who knows thresholds in defense should only be asked  for help. Hoping for your success.  

I know there really is no difference, but you know grip is politically correct why bend. I am tending to agree with realcold, don't avoid the problem, but good advice from jim also. I am curious how the ones suggesting to use "prey" define it and how they go about it. How do you "Bring the man in" later when you have taught the dog it is a nice ame of tug? Just curious.

Take care,

spencer 

Spencer, I would define prey by taking the decoy out of the equation in the early stages of bite work.  You can do this by working the dog on a tug with a long line just as Shelley's pictures show.  The tug is the prey and like a "rabbit" is kept moving to stimulate the dog.  Initially, this dog will still key on the decoy, because it may be a little unsure of the game.  The decoy does not react to the defensive posturing of the dog and when the dog shows interest in the tug it is rewarded with a bite.   Then work is done by the handler and decoy to settle the dog down and reassure it that it is not in a fight for it's life, but rather playing a fun game that it can win.

Once the dog understands this game and is biting the tug calmly, with a full hard grip you can progress further.  My advice is for this type of dog, please keep in mind that every dog needs to be worked differently based on it's individual drives and abilities. 

After this dog is comfortable with this I would progress to a handle bar or bite pillow.  I may start doing short courage tests, backing up and catching the dog.   I would make the dog miss the bite pillow to build frustration then have the handler drop the leash and send the dog.  The dog learns to work away from the handler, and now learns to bite independently without handler support.

Next stage would be a young dog sleeve, which I would introduce just like a tug.  At this point the decoy with the sleeve is the prey and their is fast movements by the decoy, bladed body, little or no eye contact before the bite.  Always slipping the sleeve their is no "out" in any of this.  The dog is calmly praised by the handler for holding the sleeve calmly.  When the dog drops the sleeve it is kicked back to the decoy as high and far as the handler can kick it.  This initiates the prey reaction and the decoy immediately starts the action again.

Here is where the defense begins to come back.  At some point, the dog will be able to guard the sleeve after it drops it.  The handler kicks the sleeve just far enough away so the dog can't get it back.  We never pull the dog back from the sleeve.  The decoy attempts to steal the sleeve, the dog should show a strong presence and the decoy should act frightened.  Remember, scaring the decoy and impressing on the decoy that the dog is powerful is as much a reward as a bite and a slip for this dog. 

Now, when the dog feels powerful and is guarding the sleeve the decoy can challange the dog more.  Whenever the dog shows a strong positive reaction the decoy reacts and runs away.  The dog wins.  Next, the dog gets a bite in prey on a run by from the decoy while on handler post.  The decoy can then turn and challenge the dog.  At this point the stick may be carefully introduced.  The dog is on a tight leash supported by the handler.  The decoy starts to drive the dog and faces the dog more frontally putting pressure on the dog.  The handler can work his/her way up the leash keeping constant tension and praises the dog.  It is critical to watch the dog here and add enough pressure that the dog senses it, but not too much to cause a negative experience.  After the pressure is applied the decoy goes back to prey and slips the sleeve. 

By this point the dog should be more well balanced and able to handle more pressure in the bite work.

JMO,

Jim

Your work sounds good for the prey side Slam. But I see nothing to neutralize some of the defense now. This is her    problem. She is 17 months old and your ability to play with her drives is becoming limited without going to extremes. Remember, scaring the decoy and impressing on the decoy that the dog is powerful is as much a reward as a bite and a slip for this dog. Tell me please why you could not incorporate some  form of this now.

Presumably, to ensure that calm and firm grips are not compromised because of defense work.  As Jim states though, "every dog needs to be worked differently based on it's individual drives and abilities."

In an article written by Armin Winkler, two approaches are described, the first by "enticing" and the second with "challenging".  If preywork is established as early as 10-12 weeks or as earlier if possible, much of the foundation for the first approach has been pre-established.  "In dogs with good balance in all drives both methods work well and we should probably use both to keep the work interesting for the dog. If prey drive is the dog's strongest motivation, then the first method will lead to quicker results. The second method works nicely on dogs who are very possessive and who show defense of prey behavior easily. As Raiser writes: "...the challenging is already the first stimulation of defense behavior..."  Prey Drive Promotion, Part I

He also states, a dog might not yet be ready for the sleeve "because they have to undergo defense drive promotion before they bite hard enough to handle a sleeve. I have learned from experience that "missing the boat" when it comes to teaching a technique when the time is right can lead to a lot of "what might have been" discussions later on."

On the other side, "Defense drive is an important part of protection training, but it is the most dangerous aspect of it as well. By that I mean that it is dangerous for the dogs. Defense training done wrong can really ruin a dog.  My philosophy is this: "It is never too late to do defense type work, but quite often it is done too early."

Too early will overstress a young dog that hasn't yet had the opportunity to experience wininng frequently in confidence building techniques that meant to be perceived as a challenge, rather than serious threat.  The pup learns more about it's own capabilities in the progression.  "I like to introduce defense stimulation to the dog with as little stress as possible. So, I focus the initial defense drive promotion on defense of prey (object defense). Dr. Raiser follows pretty much the same philosophy. Of course this is only possible if the prey drive training we have done so far has been successful. People who have read my articles on prey drive promotion will notice that at this stage there are overlaps in training."  Defense Drive Promotion

As Jim has eloquently described, I would agree is there wasn't enough overlap/transition in the excercises between the OP's tug/preywork with the handler and the defense/sleeve of the helper, and this results in greater extremes for response.  Thre strongest behaviors are reinforced through the results of prior experience, so working progressively, and with both drives, should result in better balance and flexibility.  For now, the handler might "challenge" more in tug play, and the decoy "entice" with prey stimulation.