Not bringing back the dumbell - Page 2

Yes, renofan2 that sounds like my dog.
She just doesn't get this new frontal position with a thing in her mouth. Under pressure she drops it.
Or she drops it out of confusion.
But, would love it to come together as we need it for the sch1 so long awaited.
Elkoorr, she is more than an adult she is now offically over 4 yrs. and I have had so many obstacles get
in our way for learning schutzhund. I feel embarrassed, but not really my fault entirely.
So, for months as renofan2 said we have been working hard. I would work harder if I could figure out what
to work on. LOL
I tried some gentle pops yesterday that did not work, yep she dropped it right away, i worked on her holding
a gummy bar that failed. When I move back any or take hand away she drops it. When I did get a 3 sec hold she
got food out of the pouch.
 I think I will work on carrying the dumbell some more, trying to get someone in the house to go out with her
and bring her back in. I think that is the only thing that is going to work also maybe that will reinforce the
fact they may want to take it away that could increase her desire to hold on to it. If she does drop it they can
steal and tease. That sounds like a real plan, just need to get some volunteers. Maybe this week I can convince
someone.

Dog goes out fast because he excited.  Dog not come back fast and sit by you because dog not want give dumbell to you.  You take dumbell everytime.  Dog no like this game.  Dog think avoidance and you no take dumbell.  

 I have used a Flexi Lead instead of a long line as it retracts as the dog comes in.  You only get a 26 foot retrieve but you have the control to help with a straight front too.  I also train with a slight pop (on a buckle collar. I do not use a prong for this in case I screw up I don't want the dog to get a harsh correction ) as they are grabbing dumbell so that they grab quickly and turn tightly (no arch) and return.

Don:  Yes that is it.  When first training Molly I would let her run out and get the dumbell then have her run around with it in her mouth on a line.  She never drops when she is running around with it.  When I tried to get her then to bring in front she refused and either pulled back, or dropped if given any type of force.  Now I am getting her to sit in front (not close) and (not holding long enough) but is returning and sitting with it in her mouth.  I am trying to get her to jump up on me to play tug with it, but she will not do it.  She however will jump on me at anytime when she does not have anything in her mouth.  From a pup she would have issues of peeing if you would reach down and try and take a toy from her mouth or if she was carrying her bowl around.  She has no problems playing tug with a ball or tug, but the dumbell is a different story.

C

I would suggest not to throw the dumbbell anymore and not to let her run with it in her mouth.  I would step back completely and teach her the front position with the dumbbell.  Sit the dog and step in to the frontal position, put the dumbbell directly in front of the dogs mouth and tell her to "bring", if she doesn't take it then just place it in her mouth, then tell her out and reward with whatever you use as a highly motivational reward, ie food or ball.  Repeat this many times, if she doesn't want to take the dumbbell on her own just remain calm and place it in her mouth, out instantly and reward.  It may take a whole but as she begins to associate the reward with the dumbbell she will start to want to take the dumbbell so that she can get to the reward.  Once she is taking the dumbbell on her own begin to increase the time it is in her mouth before you out her, ie instead of outing instantly ask her to hold for 1 second and then slowly increase the time she holds by a second at a time, out and reward.  I did this 2 or 3 times a day for maybe 2 minutes at a time, getting in about 5 quick retrieve-out-reward and play at each session.  As she holds consistently and for longer times take a small step backwards and have her take one or two steps forward then out and reward.  Slowly build the distance she can step in towards you and then slowly start to lower the dumbbell to the ground so she starts to learn to pick it up from there.  Don't go back to throwing it yet.  When she consistently takes it from the ground with you holding it there directly in front of her then you sit her step back a few feet and place the dumbbell on the ground between the 2 of you and tell her to bring, have her come to front, out and reward.  Slowly increase the distance that you can stand away from her with the dumbbell about 3 to 5 feet in front of her.  You can proof this by placing it in front of her and off to either side so she has to go to the side to get the dumbbell and then go to you.  There is still no throwing, the dumbbell is not a prey object and therefore is not the major reward for the dog.  By doing this the dog learns that the reward only comes from the front position and the dumbbell is not the reward but the dumbbell is the tool to get the reward that you give them.  This can be an extremely effective method to teach the retrieve but it will basically be redoing your retrieve completely so it will take a lot of time.  Don't expect results is a day or two, it will probably take a week or 2 of working on it consistently to see results.   Just stay calm, be consistent.   If you get the SchH USA magazine there is an article on this type of retrieve in the last issue (not the one that just came out).  This is just one method, there are many that you can use but I recommend that you pick a method and stick with it, the more you keep changing the longer it will take you see positive results.  Good luck with this, sounds like you are working very hard. 

thank you viperk9.
Yes, I need to keep working on the frontal.
I see that she does not understand the whole bring thing.
If I throw it then she goes out out of prey drive great.
But, zooms pass me.
So, I need  to do more frontal work, I did stop. Because I was basically afraid of doing it wrong and create
more advoidance.
So I believe I am going to start again with more frontal stuff.
I am hoping something will click. I think dog really doesn't get it, the whole picture yet, it is not her fault.
I will work on this more tomorrow. But, during this session I do end up getting frustrated with her.
So, I will work more and in small sessions.
I have been working so hard, thank you for any encouragement, sometimes I feel like giving up. I just know
I can't.
:(

I used Berhard Flinks method and worked very well ,without any correction and she did not droped  dumbell at all.

Hi
Is Berhard Flinks dvd use any force methods?
I remember someone saying something about his videos but do not remember.
Also does it take long time working on frontals and feeding for any time holding in mouth. I haven't seem to get very far.
sometimes it takes a while I know then for her taking a break and coming back to something is better.
but, I did that and seen no improvement.
I think tomorrow I work on it, she is in heat right now see how she does with working her.
 I thought of buying the flinks video but didn't know what methods he used.
Is it better to use another object to do Frontals?
Because I am extremely worried about her souring towards the dumbell, if she is forced in any way.
I have been using a gummy bar which is very squishy and nice to hold.
thanks!

not at all , most of his method is throu drive and dogs learn faster. I would not use soft gummy bar for retrive she might start  chowing the  dumbell .His nethod is very simple and easy but your dog must know frontal . make her sit  and then back up about 30 feet and show her the ball and ask her to come ( whatever using ) put the ball under the chin and tell her to sit as soon as she gets close to you ,you have to work on the timing on this and when she sit in front drop the ball . Bernhard does  this on the dumbell saying that he does make a trade with the dog .You bring the dumbell and then Lwill give you the ball.

Ok, good that is my next question I was going to post today in regards to dvd's that don't use force
methods.
I will buy this dvd if enough people say yes.
As they are expensive.
I just went out this morning her tracking was great.
And her obedience was very good.
I think her send out is looking
much better.
I need this retrieve and I am getting anxious in getting it right.
I have not been forceful at all due to her nature. She is smart and steady. But, in advance things she does seem
nervous, I see it in her eyes.
But, once she gets it she gets very pumped. I try to give her that certain words and praise when she gets it.
I use food for motivational rewards and motivational techniques as they work better and last longer once she
gets it.
I just went out and did it with someone bringing her in to me, it failed but was not bad, she did drop dumbell once
getting to me so I need to go no further.
I need to work on the frontal.   I shall continue to use that.
But, before adding dumbell need some visual help, perhaps the Flinks dvd is what I need!
I shall post this question:) thank you everyone for your tips and ideas.:)