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by VonIsengard on 03 April 2009 - 05:04

by MVF on 03 April 2009 - 20:04
PETA members also have discussion forums, and they have similar opinions and comments about us.
If a superior being from another planet were to observe each of us cussing about the other, s/he may not be that impressed with the integrity of our convictions and the soundness of our arguments. I must admit that the style and tone of the two discussions are remarkably similar. We shout "whack job!" and they shout "abuser!". In fact, I recently wrote on a PETA forum that "all meat eaters and dog breeders are not evil -- and unless vegan activiists face up to that, they will never be very persuasive." My comment was deleted!
That said, I could be pissed off, but I must adhere to my own advice and try to understand them better.
I suspect that the most reflective among us can see some merit to many of their positions. (For example, many of the animals they put down are indeed in a horrible state. And surely some animal rights protection is a good thing -- even if it restricts, as it definitionally must -- the rights of people vis-a-vis animals.)
I suspect that the most reflective among them can see some merit to many of our positions. (No one could sensibly argue that one should eliminate private ownership of animals overnight, and it is hardly reasonable to even aim at such a goal if it is meant in its most extreme form. And the religion they make of spaying and neutering leads to draconian actions, such as pediatric castrations.)
Unfortunately, in both camps, the reflective people tend to have minority voices.
I know that in my case I often find myself driving to and from state parks and forests with my dogs, reveling in our relationship, only to be brought up short by the horrific sight of dogs tied to trees or to crappy old dog houses, neglected, abused, treated as unfeeling and without needs. At those moments I do ask myself: if a superior being asked me to make the decision, would I be willing to give up my beloved dogs if all of these abused creatures could be freed from their miserable lives? That is, would I press that metaphorical button and end both the good and the bad? I am well aware that many of you agree with me that the thought of pressing that button is horrible. I am not asking if it would be easy; I am asking if it would be ethical.
Each of us has our own private answer to that one, and I don't think we will find an answer by logical proof, much less by recourse to angry divisive talk. It follows from a deeply personal conviction about the value of the suffering of all those distant creatures and how it trades off with the value of the great happiness we and our well kept pooches enjoy. Non disputandum ethos est (to paraphrase).
None of that is to deny that Shelley is very funny! I am in complete agreement that dog company is better than a lot of human company on most days. My dogs are NEVER drunk.

by MVF on 03 April 2009 - 20:04
If we are to discuss animal rights protections, almost no one will defend PETA itself. I think it is really worthwhile to separate the principles of the argument from the organizations in the conflict.
by Trafalgar on 03 April 2009 - 23:04
BUT
I do recall that there was a time in my childhood (lasting well into my late twenties) when my "love" of pets was based purely on my avid interest in their characteristics, their morphology, modes of inheritence, temperaments and the like.
Somewhere back in those prehistoric misty, primordial soup days of the late 1970s / early 1980s a group came along (named PETA) and started to make noise. At least that is when I started to hear their squeak.
An epiphany (not a false one) ocurred. Perhaps the most significant factor - that should guide human society in their treament of animals - is the animal's ability to FEEL and to suffer and to be in a state of non-suffering.
Up until that point in time I thought what mattered was MY interest.
For that one fact alone - that PETA lead me to that understanding - I will go to my grave - grateful.
Drawing conclusions based on one's own self interest is basically akin to wishful thinking.
The way to arrive at what is right, what is proper, what is truth is NOT to proclaim that what one would LIKE to be so - is so.
As far as the organization of PETA goes...I am no expert and I don't follow the the hype either way.
But I must say I am as skeptical of the "mob mentality" that leads most pet lovers to shout at every opportunity "PETA IS LUCIFER INCARNATE" as I am leery of PETA folk who feel it is better for a dog or cat to be KILLED than to live life as a "slave".

by Sunsilver on 04 April 2009 - 00:04
They watched as Gerry examined a new acquisition, some sort of monkey. It was loaded with every imaginable type of parisite, some of which had even burrowed under its fingernails.
They were absolutely horrified, and reaized that life in the wild isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I wonder if some of the PETA hardliners need a similar reality check?

by MVF on 04 April 2009 - 03:04
"Primordial soup"!?
I very much like that subtle reference to the evolution of our consciousness!
Sadly, whatever their critical role, PETA may well have overstayed their usefulness as a gadfly if they are really putting 95%+ of their received dogs to sleep.
I am myself not sure of the facts.

by sdowden on 04 April 2009 - 04:04
I do hate the fact that there are mistreated animals in this world, but dogs and cats live better lives in a loving well trained home than they ever would in the wild. These PETA people need to take a few antipsychotics and shut the hell up.
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