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by Langhaar on 27 January 2009 - 18:01
It is a common misconception that "positive" = "permissive" it does not, however one has to see it in action by an experienced practitioner in the context you want.
Positive reinforcement is invaluable for obedience, tracking and bitework IMHO.
by Sunsilver on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
Very interesting Karina!
I've done most of my training myself, with the help of books, so I have been exposed to a few different methods/POV. (I have taken a few OB and tracking classes, too.) One thing I do know is it's not 'one size fits all!' The gal in my sig had a paddle broken over her head one day, when she insisted she was going to jump from the canoe onto the dock, which would have put us both into freezing cold water. ( I think she probably would have shrugged off that shock,: though, being a cautious sort, I would have used the lowest setting to start with.)
Most pet owners would cringe at what I said above, but most people who know how hard-headed the GSD can be will understand!
I tried a couple of verbal corrections with her first, followed by a touch with the paddle on the chest, and a firm "NO...LIE DOWN! Then, I whacked her, starting with a gentle whack, and increasing the force each time. The paddle split on the third whack, but she finally got the message, and lay down! I am not in the habit of using this sort of force with my dogs, but this was a life-threatening situation. And, needless to say, next time we went canoeing, I had her leash tied to the seat, so I could reach it in an emergency! 
by justcurious on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/255816.html#256353
both donaldson and dunbar are pet dog trainers and behaviorist and in this set they discusss research that has been done and what we have learned about dogs over the years and why positive methods work.
if you are looking for a "how to" dvd this isn't it, it is very informative, imo, but it does not show you how they train. maybe paul owen would be someone to look at. i've watched a few free video clips of his online and he looks interesting. i like positive training but not into clicker nor do i hate prong collars - i just think it's not necessary to treat a dog with aggression unless all else fails, so i'm not a knee jerk anti-force trainer. i believe at the heart of these methods is building reliability while reinforcing and improving the relationship. but my dogs will always be first and foremost companion dogs and other skills take a backseat.
i use a combo of eisenmann, sats & dunbar. unfortunately charles eisenmann's books are out of print but interesting read if you can get your hands on them. sats was developed by kayce cover and we found her method to work beautifully - if you're interested you can learn more at www.synalia.com. dunbar says the first thing to teach is esl (english as a second language); and like sats teaches language using food to reinforces it (both these use food in a limited but substantial way). dunbar has a new website with a list of dvds & books recommended by a number of positive trainers, which might be worth a look - www.dogstardaily.com. i'm always open to learning so i just bought balabanov's obedience without conflict; it should be arriving any day. once i've watched it, if you're interested i can let you know how it compares other positive methods i familiar with. - hth
by Sunsilver on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
justcurious, I am lucky enough to have a copy of Chuck's Stop, Sit and Think, though it's falling apart at the seams!
One problem with Chuck is he doesn't go into specifics about his training methods.
He was friends with some of the Shiloh Shepherd folk, and Tina based her STM on his approach to dog training (Shiloh Training Method). (That's a DVD I should have bought a long time ago, because it DOES show actual footage of training.)
Let me know what you think of Ivan!
I visited Dunbar's website last night, and he does go into detail of his techiques in the FAQ, which cover most common training issues. Gave me a nice overview of his methods. I may get the DVD, because I'd like to understand the psychology behind it. I took courses in animal behaviour in uni, but what I learned is probably long out of date!
by Langhaar on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
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SATS was not developed by Kayce!
It may be her terminology but it is just a keep going marker ( the same as Ivan uses) and lots of us use when initial basic clicker training has been established so the clicker can be used as a keep going marker.
Ivan uses positive reinforcement and the SATS method(s)
It is just semantics, the methods are the same, there are only 8 ways of training anything; no matter what you call it!
by justcurious on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
It may be her terminology but it is just a keep going marker ( the same as Ivan uses) and lots of us use when initial basic clicker training has been established so the clicker can be used as a keep going marker.- Langhaar
did you mean to say - the clicker can be used as terminal or success marker - not keep going marker? i've never used a clicker method nor have i read much about it but the little i've seen - a few clips and some references here and there - the clicker is used to say "yes" or "that's right"; and not used to say "keep going" or "you're on the right track". also it's my understanding that this is just one way "sats" differs from clicker there are other differences as well.
by ocoey on 27 January 2009 - 19:01
I found the Balabanov DVDs to be very useful..I'm waiting on ther retrieve one to arrive myself!
I understood that typically the click (or whatever you choose to use, I use 'k') is a terminal marker...at least in the Pryor/Skinner school of thought. The 'keep going' was new to me with Balabanov. I had unwittingly picked up something similar, although far less polished. I think, if memory serves, we used to call it verbal encouragement in the Kohler days.
by justcurious on 27 January 2009 - 20:01
One problem with Chuck is he doesn't go into specifics about his training methods.
i have 3 of his books. the one you mentioned, a small booklet entitled "the better dog the educated dog" which is basically the same stuff but has a better outline of his method than he does in "stop!, sit! and think!" (i'll write it up and post for you if you want); and the 3rd book is "a dogs day in court" which is all about how we misunderstand why dogs do what they do and how we set them up for failure - to be honest i've had this book for years and have not actually read it all the way through
i agree with you he is not very specific so i've ended up using him more as a philosophical base and then layer other techniques that i find compatible over these core beliefs. sats is great because it does just what chuck talks about in his books - once the 5 basic commands are trained the focus needs to shift from rote memory training to actually educating the dog to use his own brain by setting the dog up to really think about what he is doing; and the whole time you are continuously building the dogs vocabulary.
He was friends with some of the Shiloh Shepherd folk, and Tina based her STM on his approach to dog training (Shiloh Training Method). (That's a DVD I should have bought a long time ago, because it DOES show actual footage of training.)
it would be great to see him actually working a dog. in his books he does describe it in great detail but seeing it would be nice. i did know tina used his methods and it was one of the reasons i seriously considered a shiloh but after further investigation i opted to stick with working line gsds.
Let me know what you think of Ivan!
i sure will. i'm very much looking forward to it.
I visited Dunbar's website last night, and he does go into detail of his techiques in the FAQ, which cover most common training issues. Gave me a nice overview of his methods. I may get the DVD, because I'd like to understand the psychology behind it. I took courses in animal behaviour in uni, but what I learned is probably long out of date!
well i like dunbar anyone who dedicates their life to improving the plight of the dog has my utmost respect whether i personally use their methods or not - but that's just me:) i have watched this set 2x almost a year apart and learned from it both time. it is academic and the target audience is trainers (i am not a pro-trainer) but i enjoy theory just as much as hands on training because i find the more i understand the concepts behind a method the more confidence i have when actually using it. and the more confidence i have the more i am able to be flexible with whatever training method i'm using. - just a side note dunbar does touch on adapting the lure/play training method to working dogs like hunting dogs so he sees his method as still having great possibilities to improve the training methods of all dogs not just the pet dog though pet dogs is his focus. if you do get it and wish to discuss it i'd be happy to discuss it with you.
by ocoey on 27 January 2009 - 20:01
I too would love to see the write up if you are willing Justcurious!!
"anyone who dedicates their life to improving the plight of the dog has my utmost respect' That is a very good point....
by Sunsilver on 27 January 2009 - 20:01
jc, Chuck is not featured in Tina's video. He suffered a stroke a couple of years ago, and is in a nursing home. I expect the next time I read a news item about him, it will be his obituary. 
http://www.nrtoday.com/article/20060818/NEWS/108180111/-1/rss01
I read his very first book: London: The Dog Who Made the Team back when I was a kid. I wasn't much of a fan of his series, as it was very amateurish, but I was lucky enough to see him and his dogs perform in person back in the '70's. WOW!! Was that ever something!
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