Puppy Mill? - Page 2

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SchHBabe

by SchHBabe on 25 January 2009 - 00:01

Tony I think the situation you described is worthy of the "puppy mill" title but that's just my opinion. The classic puppy mill is the filthy backyard operation where hundreds of dogs are crammed into tiny cages and bred and bred and bred again. But that's just the extreme. I personally do not have any respect for the "commercial" breeders who produce puppies like a product. For me a puppy mill is a mentality and not just a place. Suffice to say that I do not patronize commercial breeders with my business, regardless of how many dusty trophies hang on the wall. Pfui! I will always support the small scale family who breeds only a couple litters a year where each young pup is given personal interaction and socialization experiences. -Yvette

Baldursmom

by Baldursmom on 25 January 2009 - 02:01

The term puppy mill could be implied to any breeder that does not have a goal in mind when they breed their dogs.  traditional puppy mills include having females breed every season, spending ALL if their lives in the same crate, having the pups in that crate, having pups taken away at 4-5 weeks and sent to pet shops or brokers to sell.  Often they breed more than one breed of dog or designer dogs like the doodles.  Dogs are feed a really bad diet, often as little as possible.   Busted mills often have dogs that cannot walk due to lack of excercise, dogs that are missing limbs, are blind or otherwise disabled.  

 As mentioned above, 20-30 litters in a large kennel is not unheard of.  Many breeders need to breed this much if they are to know what their lines are producing for the show ring.  Extras become "pets".  However, they need to watch it to ensure they do not have too many dogs keep back and wind up with a cowded kennel.  If there are too many good dogs,  you don't need to breed anymore or sacrifice that great sog to someone else to win in the ring!

Where it gets to be a problem with these large breeders is when it is the sole income for people.  It has to be a business where capital is earned, costs are contained and supply and demand have a role.  This can be balanced with as much in house vet care as possible or being indepentenly wealthy (there are those out there, tax write off, maybe).  But, when the ecomony fails and there are no people that can afford to feed a GSD let alone pay $4000 for one, these people lower prices and increase puppies to maintain their living, slowly creeping down the puppy mill slope.

Tony, imagine some of these folks having to get a real job???  Think they can make it to the office on time??  If you have been at a show we all know they drive gas guzzling Humvees !

I find it interesting that the "rules" of the game involve convincing the public to buy from large breeders when the hobby breeder with possibly untitled dogs are producting better puppies for the average buyer.  Instead we call these folks kitchen breeders or hobby breeders.  I am not talking about the backyard breeder that buys a male and female and lets them have at it every 6 months either.  I am tallking about the show or sch enthuziast with one or two well cared for dogs that seeks out a good male to compliment the bitch and raises the litter in the home with warmth, love and care.   You know these puppies when you meet them. 



 


by Sam1427 on 25 January 2009 - 02:01

Except for the extreme - hundreds of caged, filthy dogs bred every cycle - the fancy obviously does not agree on what exactly constitutes a puppy mill. You can get an unhealthy puppy raised in dirty conditions from someone who has one or two litters a year in their home from tested titled dogs and does not know what they are doing but thinks they do. You can get a great pup from someone who has a few dozen tested, titled dogs in extremely clean outdoor kennels, has a trainer who works the dogs and who has a number of litters every year.  Animules first post summed it up nicely.

Thing is, if we don't agree on what exactly is a puppy mill, how is the unknowledgable average Joe or Jane supposed to know?

windwalker18

by windwalker18 on 25 January 2009 - 03:01

When I was first out of college I wanted to get a German Shepherd... I didn't know ANYTHING about lines,pedigrees, testing or anything else... except what I'd read in Dog World articles.  I pulled into a kennel... and knocked on the office door.  A guy came out of the house and yelled over to me...  "whadya want??"  I answered that I was interested in getting a Shepherd pup.  He told me he had 2 litters just then, but none were ready to go, come back in 2 weeks.  I asked if I could see some the mothers and fathers of the litters.. he said it would upset the mothers too much and they might tromple the puppies... come back in 2 weeks.  I asked if he could show me the sires to the litters (they were in a different building) he just repeated ... "Come back in 2 weeks!"  Trying one last time to be a good consumer... I asked what he was breeding for... (meaning Show, obedience, pets, color.. whatever...) and he looked at me with a dumbfounded look and said  "TO SELL THEM!!!!"    shook his head and added... "Come back in 2 weeks!!!" turned and walked back into his house.

That's a pretty good description of a puppy mill in my book.... and NO I didn't go back in 2 weeks.  I eventually purchased a male from a small back yard breeder, who adored their dogs... but didn't do testing x-rays etc... (this was 30 years ago) but had some nice dogs.  Shiloh ended up being the perfect dog to learn with, having 100% temperment and structurally sound, though not the conformation I'd look for today.   Together we did Obedience, Conformation, Personal Protection, Dog Sledding, a bit of tracking, and Pet Therapy.  When I thought about breeding him (as most 1st timers who think their dog is perfect do) Someone kindly told me that males were a dime a dozen, and "Studding" a male wasn't in the cards for my boy.  Another person sugested I purchase a better female and "breed up"   Fortunately I'd learned a lot in the days since I went to my first "breeder"... the better female I purchased was bred to an even better male... and I used as my motto "Start with the BEST... and THEN breed up!" 

I agree that the primary earmark  of being a "Puppy Mill" is that gent's statement that what he bred for was "TO SELL THEM!" He didn't care about bloodlines, pedigrees, faults, testing or anything else.  He had one or two males, 5 or 6 females and had 10 or so litters a year to sell.  If one of his "studs" died he either kept a pup from a litter to replace them, or picked up a male cheap somewhere.  I don' t think that all Puppy Mills are dirty (though most I've seen or heard of are), and some do get shots and such from Vets... That ole guy loved his dogs, and spent much of his day with them... but the bottom line is always about the almighty buck...

by GSDforSale on 25 January 2009 - 14:01

Ok...what's this?

Breeder owns male and female. Neither are titled, but both are from titled parents, and both are over 24 months old.
Breeder has 1 litter every other year. Puppy buyers are screened and usually become friends and keep in contact with breeder from then on. Puppies are sold having been wormed and immunized and socialized, and are sold with unconditional guarantee.
Is this a puppy mill?


by autobahn on 25 January 2009 - 15:01

A puppy mill, to me, is a kennel that has more breeding dogs than can be adequately cared for. I don't care if you have 5 dogs or 50, if they are not getting physically and mentally stimulating every day, then you should not have them. I also don't care if every breeding dog is titled or not. You can be a kennel who wins Sieger and Siegerin every year, and you can still run a puppy mill. Puppies and dogs should not be sitting around in crates or small runs, for any reason. Sure, I understand an hour here or there, but up to 22 hours a day? I don't think so. And yes, I know of a big kennel who has had dogs in crates for up to 22 hours a day.

Baldursmom

by Baldursmom on 25 January 2009 - 15:01

GSDfor Sale:
A "kitchen breeder", they love the dogs/breed and want to share them with the world, good place to get a pet, not a show prospect or competition dog.  Breeders would call them parasites on their business for the pet market.  Do they know what they are doing genetically?  Most likely not.  If they are doing all you have suggested and selling pups for <$500, they are losing money. 

In my experience trying to do it right with showlines:

price of female (2004)= $2500
training to 24 months= $30 per week= 30X104=$3060
Vet bills for 24 months= $1000 (inc hips)
Feeding= 15x104= 1560
outside sch 1 title= $5000
Registrations/Memberships to USA, WDA and AKC= $200
Progesterone tests= $200
Stud fees=$900
Whelping supplies pregnace visits= $200
Wormings and shots for pups at the vet (6 puppies average)= $500
Feeding pup 4 week to 8 weeks= $50 per week= $200

Total ~15,000
Sold pups for $2500, recived half afer advertisement with large kennel= $8750, quite the hole, but more than I could achieve on my own!  This does not include show fees, travel expenses and other incidentals.

Note from Bruce's new mom and dad= priceless!!!

by mad on 25 January 2009 - 16:01

 autobahn, i could not have said it any better than you.....right on

divmstr1988

by divmstr1988 on 25 January 2009 - 17:01

autobahn. I also agree with you, you said it perfect.

GSDforSale, not a puppy mill, but why breed if they are just pets, way to many abandoned dogs that need homes already

by GSDforSale on 25 January 2009 - 23:01

"kitchen breeder".......now, there's a new term....... well, that's  a step up. At least it's in the house!





 


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