motivational/drive building training question - Page 2

Regarding the treats. If  my pup was highly motivated by food, I would use food/bait to teach, but then once he understood what I was asking him to do every time I would switch to the toy as a reward/drive builder. 

The really great  trainers that I see have so many different tools, from bribery to motivational to compulsion to force, everything in between and probably some well developed secrets too  in their tool boxes, they are open to all methods,  and they can figure out quickly what will work and what will not work depending on the dog at hand. 

To me, this is a big part of what separates the truly great trainers from the rest of us poor slobs. 

In well over a dozen dogs, I've only had two that were very motivated by treats.  Even the ones with strong food drive at feeding time have had little care for treats.  This has left me at a greater disadvantage in learning with the other members of my club, who base much of their training with food.  Toys and tugs have therefore become essential, and some dogs respond best to particular toys than other toys.

Motivation by verbal praise has also become important for me, and the bond with the dog is crucial in that respect.  Your vocal tonality, pitch, tempo, etc. then becomes a powerful tool in its own right.  Body language and gestures are also important communication channels receptive to the tractable dog.

Using all of these; food, toy, voice, gestures in the way that best motivates the dog, and gets you the response you want, is what training the handler is all about, and the offers the most flexibility in initiating each excercise.  Marking and timing of the reward is also significant, and the dog's flexibility to work either with motivation, and/or accompanied with compulsion.

As far as drive "building" goes, I'm a non-believer.  A low drive dog can be made to store that drive, but runs out of gas too quickly to be worth the effort.  Not something to breed on, IMO.  Building a tractable/biddable relationship has more permanence.

What I really like about training with my yearling male, is that while drive is consistent and strong with the toy, it's really never about the toy. It's about the interaction we're having together, and the toy serves as a catalyst. He drops the toy without a thought if we move onto something else, always immersing himself where the action is at. No obsession with the sleeve at all either, of course. Having a dog that wants to work, and cares little for bribes, is something I wish they could all be like, and would be difficult to want any other way having experienced it.

I don't at all disagree about keeping the toy from them when not training, but I don't necessarily follow that advice. I don't leave him with a tug though, because he'd shred it.

Whatever the dog likes more.....

I've found with one of my own dog's that the obedience work is much better focused with food vs. using a toy as a primary reinforcer.  The toy still comes out as in between she enjoys the "fight" of the toy, just like the sleeve.  However as a primary motivator/reinforcer, she prefers food.   The toy will motivate, just really not as much as the food.   If that makes any sense.   So we use both.....

She too likes the tennis balls thrown by the chuck it toy.  Most of her "running" exercise comes during herding.   But even if she hasn't gotten to herding, she's quite content to hang in the house.  

I've found myself needing to remove the toy at times, to decrease the drive.  Generally, food is much better for teaching positioning, and toys for increasing drive.

Darylehret, you say you're not a fan of 'drive building'.   From my first introduction to schutzhund, all I've heard is how important a good foundation is, with drive building  being one of the main building blocks.

Would you please explain your way of thinking?

Thankyou
Becky

bump

A good foundation is important, and so is a good relationship.  But I don't care to artificially build drive.  I want it instantly when called upon, and invoked to the level I require.  It's not that I'm not a fan of it, I just don't believe it works.   Perhaps I have never fully understood how to "build drive", with my attempts at crating, starving, etc. all of which I found to be ineffective, and temporary at best.

One thing I realized early on, was that capping drive is a helluva lot easier than building it.  Now, this is of course going to largely depend on the dog you have.  You have to do what you have to do with some particular dogs, and it's these that bring into question their use for breeding or at least, suitability for sport.  But desire to work is an aspect of temperament, and given that the dog has the proper natural level of drive, hormone levels, metabolism, and all else inside the realm of their hereditary and biological influence, then all you need to focus on is your ability to properly motivate the dog to your instruction, anytime, anyplace, and without necessary preparation.  When the bond/relationship is strong, "you" are the motivation, moreso than any toy or food.  And that will be one very special dog to you.