Corrections... - Page 2

Currently I am teaching group classes at the local AKC affiliated kennel club.  Boy am I a misfit there.  In fact, I've kinda been wanting to vent about something that recently happened.  All of their obedience trainers there use traditional methods... lots of leash corrections that owners have a tough time following through correctly... not strong or consistant enough... training the dogs by checking them when they don't obey although they do not really know the command yet... and using very little to no food/toy rewards.

I've been training my class using reward-based methods.  I explain that dogs should learn what is expected through positive motivation before they should ever be punished for disobeying.  Well... at the end of the last class, because I have a lot of puppies in my group... I decided to have all teams get in a circle and my assistant (the training director of the club) would hold one leash and visit with the dog, then that owner would go around to the next and hold that leash, and continue this until every person had time with every dog and finally got back to their own.  Anyway, if I was not trying to stay on good terms with this club I would have torn the assistant/training director a new one!!!  I've been using my Schutzhund puppy as my demo dog and when the assistant got around to holding her leash she was making her "heel" and "sit" and checking her for not listening to her!!!!!!

Now that I got that off my chest I would like to say that I find reward-based methods tend to work better with pet dogs.  Owners often are much more comfortable working with their dog than against them, have difficulties giving strong and consistant corrections, cannot read their dogs well enough to know if the dog was confused or disobeyed... etc. etc.  Also, many pet dogs are insecure and the traditional techniques seem too tough for them and can lead to the dog shutting down or becoming fear aggressive.

I've seen traditional techniques work well on some GSDs.  Of course all lot of GSDs were trained by compulsion not too long ago... so maybe genetically they are just more capable of handling corrections well... but often corrections are not necessary and you can accomplish what you want without them... although it may take more thought... you may have to start thinking like your dog.

Goldenelk, when I teach my dogs who's boss I don't use my hands or scruff them, I have studied closely how the mother corrects the pups, (same principle with all breeds and have had pups with Rotti's & few others) and I know everyone is gonna laugh at me, but I push them down and make them roll over then I get my face over theirs and growl at them and bite their cheek (not hard) and we "talk".  Just for a minute mind you, then we lighten up and I kinda do a check over like the mom does, tickle/scratch their belly and talk nice to them. 

My female has a strong alpha streak in her and I have had to "put her down" twice, each time she was way wrong and the consequences of not listening to me were life threatening to a small dog.  She and I have a very close bond and I don't believe in using my hands to scruff as you said "association".  But this is what I mean by going toe-to-toe, it seldom goes there except in extreme cases.  I start the pups out very early with submission exercises, just laying them on their backs, teaching them to trust me, not letting them up too soon - just cuz they whine a bit, then we do affection.  I am very happy with the results and the dogs are not nervy - rock solid nerves - they do know who's alpha and their place in the family and it sure makes them more confident in the "pack".  I really like understanding how they think so that I can communicate better with them.  It seems that this method IMO is how mama keeps her pups in line and they understand that pretty well.

As for peeing?  Get rid of the sandbox and put grass there, and if it's a male, place a fire hydrant in the middle

Don't they have some sort of post that has a scent like another dog's "marking"? You stick it in the ground where you want them to go and they try to outpee the scent on the post? I've never tried it. Has anyone else?

"Have any of you ever had a dog growl at you when you attempted to give it a command or up the stakes when you attempted to correct it - as if it my be up for a fight? Now this question does relate to a dog (not my own) who was eventually put down for aggression issues. Ive always contended that the dog was just dominant and could have been saved if placed in the right hands."

What you believe about saving this dog is true.  We had a Rotti we got at 9 months old (she was on the way to the shelter) and same story for 2 yr old chow.  Both of these dogs were growlers at their bowls.  The Chow would actually get aggressive.  It took me weeks to win their trust and to get them to relax when eating.  And when using the "motherly bite" method with an older dog it can be very chancey but I guess it is better than knowing that if they don't get it, they end up like you stated.  I don't like that alternative much. 

For all other training issues I basically use positive reinforcement, lots of praise and treats.  I don't isolate training to certain periods of the day but do it all the time and make training games out of most things we do.  I also don't let them up on the bed or sofa, time out for minor discipline in their room.  Used the e-collar to teach them to stay off a nasty neighbors fenceline, now I only have show my girl the TV remote and she stops barking like a loon.  She loves to bark and talk and tell me everything that's going on in the neighborhood.  She is sooo nosey and always wanting to check out everything, don't leave her out or she'll sit there and gripe at you for 20 minutes, not loud crazy barking, just bark.......bark........bark - she's a loon and I love her bunches.  But, just one call of her name and she stops anything she's doing and comes running all out with tail wagging, happy to see me - the ultimate goal for me.

We could probably make our own "scent" post and it might be much more effective if you just use the neighbor dog that your dog hates the most and have him pee on it !   Haven't tried it but we do have a fire hydrant on the property line that the neighbor dogs all like to hit.  I think my boy builds up marathon sessions on - thinks it's his, rightfully so since it's in his yard.