Let's talk dominance...... - Page 2

I don't even know why this dog is doing bitework? Last thing dogs like this need is more bites and feeling more power.

I would personally try to purchase the dog, if not, wash my hands of him or tell someone who can deal with him.

If you are doing this for business which it appears you are, this is a bad situation. Your name is connected with him now and you will be the one who "trained" the dog. I would try hard to lose this guy.

Guys like this really only learn the hard way. Sad but true.

Sounds like you picked the pup out, you put the bite work on him, you feel the need to someday choke him out but you find it unfair for the handler to crank on him? The potential in the dog greater than the handler and now you want to do better for the dogs sake? Am I correct so far?

You never did say what the handler wants out of his dog. Pet/protection/sport prospect or what? Is he a family dog or being trained for police work?

Sounds as if you have been around this "team" from the beginning. You admit to seeing issues with handling in the beginning, yet you still went into the bite work? Who is at fault then for making an unsafe dog? When do you put the OB or control on the dog?

My question I suppose is, if the dog is every bit of how you describe, should more OB have been put on the dog, before the bite work to keep him easier to handle and under control? Seems different techniques must be available to people who are small or have large dogs. Maybe instead of the handler holding the dog you should use a pole or back tie, someone on a long line as a drag behind the handler? It doesn't seem fair blaming the guy for being small, when you as the trainer are supposed to have a handle on these issues before hand. If you work the dog knowing all of this beforehand, who's fault is it if you get bit?

I guess you should just take the dog, that would be better for everybody. That seems to be the majority rule so far. You can put him on a podium and the owner can just go somewhere else.

GARD,

Sounds like what could be a great dog if he's that self assured.  I'm agreeing with some previous statements here, make the guy an offer he would have a hard time refusing.  This dog needs a handler that understand what the dog is and will be consitant with it, as well as work it enough to make a difference.  Offer to help the guy find a dog more suited to his temperament, that may help smooth a deal.  For your sake if the guy either will not listen to direction or will not take up an offer to replace the dog with one that fits him, you should discontinue training both handler and dog.  You don't need to be in any further as "the trainer" when, not if, something happens down the road.  Just be sure you have documentation in place that you requested he leave as he would not follow direction of proper handling and training.

I hate to see a dog go to waste like that.   I know my limitations on the field and don't work either of our males.  I can handle them any where, any time away from the training field, I just cannot hold them in protection. Too bad others can't also realize their limitations.

JMO.

4pack

I was merely making light of the guys size because insecure people usually get into working dogs and "tough" dogs because of that insecurity.  It is an extension of their.........

I suppose the dog is red n black 

You have a problem, 1st you have taken a dog and put bite work on a dog that is not under strict OB, and understanding this dog's personality. You also have misgivings about the owner of the dog and his handling. You will not do well on the stand when the law suit comes. We have all made some mistakes, with high hopes things will change, but this could cost this dog dearly. If it is this gents ego, that is preventing him from learning and listenting, then bite it and play to his ego. Even if he sells the dog, he should not be doing sch with any dog, if he is unwilling to work with the dog correctly.

I understand and I am not making judgement on you, but I can not stress enough, If this dog takes a kid down, YOU will pay dearly. Buy the dog if you can, if there is anyway to get the dog away from him, I would. My daughter was bitten by a sch rottie at a camp ground, and had a famous owner. The dog was going for a bike, and she walked inbetween them at the time he went to strike. I think at the last minute the dog realized and just knicked her, plus she has been around dogs and knew how to handle herself. I did not go after him, but we all can see the possible dollar signs here, with very deep pockets. Accidents happen all the time even with experianced handlers and good dogs, but with ignorance and a sch dog, is like throwing a match on gasoline. i wish you and the dog safe handling.

Thank you all for your experience, ideas, and advice. I think some very interesting points were brought up and this could be a good discussion everyone can learn from.

I would like to hear people's opinion on the difference between drive and dominance and how they relate to pet's, sport dogs, and police service.

As for pets I believe dominance is perhaps one of the worst attribute for a pet. The reasons are obvious to me. Extreme drive can be very bad as well. The difference is drive can be channeled into something useful or positive, such as playing ball or frisbee with your dog. Dominance cannot be channeled. It can only be dealt with, if you are able to deal with it. Extereme dominance has no place in a pet home. I think perhaps the worst thing about confidence and dominance is it gives a false sense of security.

It is easier to see when drive can become a problem, the outright signs of drive are evident. A prey driven dog will chase cats, small screaming children, bicycles, etc. This is easily seen as a potential problem. A defensive dog barks aggressively, growls, snarles, shows teeth. Most people are able to identify this as aggression. Dominance on the other hand, is not readily identified by most people. They see a dog that is not scared of anything, the picture of calm and confident. They are usually friendly with other people and children. They have no need to show agression. Inexperienced handlers or people who can't read a dog, miss the subtle hints. That look in there eyes, that certain subtle body posture. Then one day the dog matures and someone makes the mistake of giving the dog direct eye contact, gives the dog a rough pat on the ribs, or the guest tries to take a ball from the dog so they can play. The owner is left dumbfounded, having no idea what happened or why.

For the sport dog, drive is an absolute necssesity, dominance is not. A certain degree is desireable but to much gives problems in OB and the out, often keeping a great dog just of the podium.

For the Police K9, dominance is a desired trait. Dominance gives this dog the drive to fight. The natural instinct to win at all costs. The ability and the psycology to defeat the opponant. Drive is also a given but you do not necissarily need the extreme drive you want for sport. You do not need flashy point getting OB. What a police dog lacks in drive, it can more than make up for with dominance for the job they have to do.

What do you all think?

True dominance in our domestic dogs is very very rare. This is because we have been breeding dogs for hundreds of generations to never fully mature, like the wolf. our domestic dogs litterally stay puppies their entire lives. what most people call dominance is really just what i call a pushy confident dog. then when somone get this type of dog and they are not clear with the dog and the dog doesn't listen or bites someone they lable it dominant. i have seen and delt with a few of these dogs and generally when the handler comes to terms that they can't handle the dog and it goes to a more experienced handler (as long as the old handler wasn't extremly bad and the dog is still pretty young like under four) all those so call dominent behaviour magically go away. if these dogs were truely dominate dogs they will push for rank their entire lives once they mature.

what i feel makes a good L.E. dog is a confident sound tempermented dog with good drives and likes to fight. this type of dog i do not see that much in L.E. most departments don't have the handlers for this type of dog. generally when a department does get this type of dog it often ends up eating the officer and the dog gets sold and labled a dominent dangerous dog. the dog then goes to someone else with a lot of bagage and the process is repeated and often ends in a sad story. i see more of this type of dog in the sport world only with a little better results. i think the results are a little better, because generally speaking in the sport world, there are better dog handlers. often k-9 handlers are just police officers that are looking to make more money and are not really interested in becoming a dog trainer.

i agree with everything you have stated above, mostly about the pet home and not getting it.  Been there done that., I have one at home now, is calm as can be never gets excited, will allow and ask to be petted by anyone who enters my home. But do not relax, I do not care if he looks asleep, he knows what is going on in everyroom of this house and yards. If that SOB thinks I am not paying attention to what he thinks is a threat, I can say with certainty he will respond, I catch him, I  call him off and know one is the wiser as to what may have been just getting ready to go down. I have learned over the years, when my kids were teens, they could toss each other around even with friends, he was never a problem. However, if one of her friends came over and they had any type of drug in them or on them, their arms better never be raised. The kids all learned I was a drug free house. Was also very funny, he allowed all the teens to come in at will but leave your parents at the door until they were invited in. Was pretty funny to see the kids dressed for prom and explain to the parents why they had to wait outside until I came and got them, while they just walked in. He also thought my youngest daugther was an airhead and would not allow her to anwser the door without him, If the person stood there to long and did not come in, he would go off never leaving the threshold of the door. I swear after they took off, and she shut the door you could see him laugh.

He is a very serious dog with a very casual attitude and has a lot of tolerance with a mind like a steel trap. In the wrong hands this dog could be mistaken for a wonderful pet /family home. He is either put up, or my eyes are on him, period.....

Are you kidding? If the dog has the potential as you say it does, then why would you have the handler somewhat submit as you are suggesting. It would only make the dog feel more overpowering over the handler. It is a confident dog from what you discribe and seems clear as well, so why would you want the handler to give in to the dog. As long as the dog is not changing in the work. You can always tell when there is conflict in a team by the dogs work and grips. Are you recognizing anything different? The only conflict that I see is that the handler is competing for toys, which can easily be fixed in a couple of sessions.