How do you teach the dumbell? - Page 4

 Duderino,

At what "big events" do you refer that require up to 10 "second rules being (followed)?"  

I wasn't privy to that nor have I ever witnessed it at the numerous National and International events I've attended; not even the one in which I participated (albeit unsuccessfully).

BTW I appreciated one aspect of the condescending certainty contained in your post.  You've exposed that unlike Changer you've not participated at the level of competition to which you refer. 

However, that doesn't denigrate your assertion and the questions it poses.  Most that compete at her level do so successfully with more "traditional" methods in line with your thinking.  That she also competes and scores highly (should) give one pause for consideration.

Regards,

Kevin Nance

First let me explain the 5-10 second rule.  Dog must hold basic position for 5 seconds before the next exercise begins, for instance, after the recall the front position must be held for 5 seconds before the finish.  After the dumbbell is thrown, the sit must be held for 5 seconds before the dog is sent.  After the front with the dumbbell, the dog must hold firm and calm for 5 seconds before the out and hold the front for 5 seconds before the finish.  The 10 second rule applies to holding the motion sit, motion down and motion stand for 10 seconds before the handler returns.  Club level follows the 3-5 second rule.  In the rulebook, look it up.

FYI, I have competed at more Regional, National and World Championships than Changer and have had more success.

 Duderino,

I stand corrected and respectfully so regarding your standing in the sport.  And, I hear exactly what you are saying...

Time will tell, as you assert.  Training methods evolve but of course can only occur after someone steps "out of the box" and finds success despite the naysayers.

Would you provide a source document for the 10 seconds to which you refer?  I've never seen anything in Schutzhund that suggested different requirements for different levels of competition.

Take care and thanks for the reply and clarification on my "assumptions" regarding your experience.

Respectfully,

Kevin Nance

Thank you and I agree, time will tell and longevity is the key. 

Duderino,
I think you have an excellent point that the force would develop a pattern of consistant speed over the years. At least that would be the hope, I've seen plenty of force trained dogs that get slower and slower over the years just as I am sure you've seen prey trained dogs get slower and slower.
I am not sure I would call what I do a prey retrieve, I think of it more like a deal, ball for the retrieve, but we might be talking about the same thing.
I am having dificulty about achieving the "desperation" to get back to me that force normally gets. I don't think his retrieves are spectacular at all, though I think it's more about what I accidently trained in as a novice trainer than the method itself. I do think they are definitely reliable and since most trainers use this excuse not to use a non force method, I was all ready to debate about reliability!
Since his best retrieves were in his Sch 2 and his first Sch 3, I would say so far, you are absolutely right, they seem to have downgraded (as far as speed, his fronts are oh so much better). Let's see how he does in his next big competition and then we can compare notes.
Videos: so everyone can pick my mistakes and his apart: :)
shadesdogtraining.net go to the about us page and look at his obedience videos.
youtube look up:        may 8 2010 reiki.wmv      This was his first Sch 3, and though his retrieves are far away from the person videoing, probably his fastest.

Duderino,
it would also be nice if you posted how to achieve fast returns on your retrieves since that is currently being asked on one of the other threads.

Sorry, no PayPal, cash only.  I have different techniques I use for different temperaments and different handling skills/levels.

Changer, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on the motivational method for fast retrieve that worked for you and your dogs.  The obedience video of Reiki in the USA National Championship was very nice work.

Duke also made some valid comments on the various techniques with his dogs. Thanks also for sharing your video.  Keep up the good work :)

I am sure we all would love to hear Duderino' s forced technique for a fast retrieve if he / she can be persuaded to share.  Afterall you need to redeem yourself after shooting others for their methods, don't you think?

It's not a shooting, it's a discussion.  To me it would be irresponsible to discuss force retrieving techniques over the Internet.  I can tell you however, I do not use an ear pinch or a toe line.