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by Gustav on 20 February 2017 - 18:02
If you bred two dogs together who were both weak tempered, and comes from generations of weak tempered dogs on both sides, and they produced a nice strong tempered dog. The phenotype of the dog would be strong temperament, the genotype of the dog would be weak. That dog would produce more of what his parents were and generations behind him then what he is. Not good breeding stock, though may be a good working dog.
Example: Triumphs Gucci was Black and Red WGSL dog who was very successful in show ring and competed in both his National IPO trials and qualified for the WUSV in which he competed successfully. He was bred to extensively, yet you will not find him producing anything close to him on the working/sport field. His phenotype was at top sport level,( he himself), his genotype was still West German Showlines and top sport breeders understanding this would not touch him because of his genotype, despite his beauty and structure.
by mrdarcy on 20 February 2017 - 18:02
As for the S/L v W/L debate on a Conformation thread???? I have given up on trying to do much about it, no one ever takes any notice of warnings and I do have other things I can be doing. Basically it's a lost cause just like the split in the breed.....it will never change.
by Bavarian Wagon on 20 February 2017 - 18:02
As far as softness goes…you didn't see the dog get corrected a single time...you didn't see the dog do any kind of obedience exercise or watch it react to a handler trying to teach it an exercise. Softness has nothing to do with how she acts environmentally. Softness/hardness is the dog staying in drive through stress. These dogs are used to this environment and the good ones enjoy that environment so it doesn’t prove the dog is “harder” just because it can handle that environment. Environmentally stable? Sure. But looking at the pedigree, and understanding the kind of working ability those lines have…it’s very easy to make the assumption that the dog is soft.
Anyone that understand how these dogs are generally trained and handled (won’t admit it) knows how these dogs aren’t expected to do much and are in no way as obedient as your average pet dog and of course not even close to a working/sport dog. In the same way that WGSL aren’t expected to control themselves prior to the defense portion of a sieger show (in order to not crush the drive to bite), these dogs aren’t corrected or controlled anywhere near as much as a harder dog would need to be.
I know the types of dogs, I know the training, I’ve personally handled dogs that have been trained by Kent. It’s definitely different, it’s definitely an accomplishment and the dogs know their job amazingly well. Just like any training venue, a well trained show dog speaks for itself when it comes to training for the show ring. That training however…should not allow you to make the assumption that the dog is capable of doing other types of work, yet people being people, and human nature being human nature, prefer to make positive assumptions rather than negative because negative ones hurt people’s feelings. And that is exactly what leads to “I know this dog can do X if I had the time and ability to do it so it’s definitely breedworthy.”
by pfortnerhaus on 21 February 2017 - 05:02
by Sunsilver on 21 February 2017 - 15:02
..should not allow you to make the assumption that the dog is capable of doing other types of work...
And let's not make the assumption she CAN'T do other types of work, either. She's inbred on Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes, who was temperament tested, and had his CD and a herding degree HSCS (means herding at the starter level, course C, on sheep.)
I exchanged e-mails with someone on this board who saw him herd. She said he was a natural, and looked like he had the stamina to keep it up all day long. She says it's a shame his handler never took him any farther than starter level, because he definitley had the potential.
Okay, just because Dallas could do it doesn't mean SHE could do it, but let's not make assumptions either way. What bothers me is that so many of these dogs never get the chance to try. Kudos for anyone working with ASL dogs (looking at you, Xeph!) who gives them that chance!
by Bavarian Wagon on 21 February 2017 - 16:02
Classic…temperament test and a CD…breeding standard 10 years ago. Today, it’s a BN and RN since temperament tests are too hard to find and a CD involves a few too many exercises that are way too hard to teach, like off leash heeling.
Every time I read those posts I realize more and more why our breed is where it is. “someone, somewhere, said this dog was amazing, BREED IT!”
First level tests...not even titles...that's all we need these days. Herding instinct, dog chased a rag on a flirt pole, dog followed a food lure...for sure the dog is amazing and could continue on to an HGH, IPO3, or UDX...but I just need to see that first test to know "the dog can do it" so why keep training and actually prove it? We can just assume that it can based on those simple tests!
by Sunsilver on 21 February 2017 - 16:02
haven’t seen the dogs work, but I exchanged an email with a random person who I don’t know if they have any experience either, but they claimed the dog was amazing so the offspring are also all amazing.
Normally I wouldn't take the time to respond, but what the heck, I'm off work today. BW you must get SOOO much exercise jumping to conclusions! Random person?? Google Firethorn German shepherds, please.
so the offspring are also all amazing.
No, I specifically DID NOT say that. I said
Okay, just because Dallas could do it doesn't mean SHE could do it, but let's not make assumptions either way. What bothers me is that so many of these dogs never get the chance to try.
Go find another target to throw mud at, BW. I'm done here for today.
Edited to add info re: Dallas
Posted by Firethorn:
I had the great pleasure of knowing Dallas very well. He and his owner trained with me the to earn his herding titles. This dog was awesome. One of the best tending dogs I've ever worked with. He easily could have done HGH had his owner been interested. As it was he is the only Best in Show winner in America that has a working trial title, he earned his HSCs at age nine. He had wonderful stock sense, incredable work ethic and that willingness to please that characterizes a great tending dog. And he could take a hard correction, responding with "oh that is what you meant" Great temperment. He has produced a number of progeny that are tending sheep as well. He also has changed the look of the AMerican dog to one of much more type, better feet, less angulation, improved secondary sex characteristics. He sired about 120 litters, produced at least seven select animals, about ten best in show dogs and more conformation champions in the US than any other dog ever. His death was very hard for his owners as he was their house dog. He did pass in his sleep, they found him dead in the morning when they got up. His sire passed away at seven, however his dam lived to be nearly 15 and his half brother Heart Throb is still around and is fifteen. Susan
by Bavarian Wagon on 21 February 2017 - 17:02
One day you’ll figure it out…no need to test the dog when people like you make excuse after excuse and allow breeders sell puppies off of fairy tales rather than ruin that with reality. Keep selling that a CD is somehow equivalent to the original breed test and you’re exactly why countries outside of central Europe will never have minimum breeding standards. If all that’s expected is a couple of titles 3 generations back and a dog running around and not tucking tail, well then, go forth and breed all the BYB’s out there, as they’re not doing anything different than what you people are defending here.
by mrdarcy on 21 February 2017 - 17:02
Bavarian Wagon, you have been warned about your rudeness many times the next time you start will be your last. If you can't give your opinions in a civil manner then don't comment at all thank you.
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