Serious Breeders - Page 12

Yeah yogi...those national and regional level dogs don't get tested in new environments. The only videos I've ever seen from you or duke have always had the same background, usually with a helper jacking the dog up in drive before it’s sent for some sort of bite…real tests. I love seeing people that can’t even imagine training a dog to the level many of these are trained to talk shit about them…for those that want this to relate to the original question…that’s the jealousy I’m talking about. Can’t do it? Talk shit. Make something up that sounds good. I’ve personally worked or been on the same field as the majority of the dogs on that list (I actually do search for dogs and go see them) and I can tell you that most of them wouldn’t have an issue with whatever “green dog test” you guys usually do. Very little understanding from most people about the quality of the dogs on that list…as it’s easier to claim that that unpapered dog from eastern Europe is higher quality than actually go out there and prove it (that takes time, effort, and some training ability).

And yes…go out there and test the dog, see what it is. But sorry…the moment you start talking shit about dogs that have scored very well at nationals or were even on the world team, when all you have behind your name is MAYBE a club title…you lose all credibility. That’s the kind of stuff “normal buyers” fall for every day and unfortunately, this forum helps keep that going by defending those kinds of ideas…and that’s why people end up with crappy dogs, because they believe that they just need to find an “honest breeder” who tells them a load of crap about the dogs at the top which they’ve never met and convinces them that the dog they failed a BH with is still a great German Shepherd and possibly better than that dog going to Europe to compete.

I'm not talking about the dog I'm talking about people like BF saying the would pick a dog from the list because they know the people get off the high horse

Edit to fix name apologies  

More for the original question..."get off the high horse" = statement made because I'm supposedly on a high horse since I've accomplished more or give respect to those that have accomplished more in sport which is something that clearly most breeders are incapable of. So they have to make it seem like I'm the bad guy and the a-hole for believing that accomplishing something in a venue where someone else lacks the skill and ability to compete means something.

Basically...if you step out of line and point out anyone's "deficiencies" you're the bad guy and don't know what you're talking about. Another reason why people can't find good dogs...the breeder cartel doesn't allow anyone to bad mouth them. If you're a breeder, it doesn't matter how good or bad...you're in the "fraternity" and no one else in the "fraternity" can say anything negative about you.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there, yogi--I didn't say anything about breeding to a dog just because I felt their owner was trustworthy [and that's not how I took BE's comment, for the record, she was pointing out that there were certain studs on that list whose owners could be relied upon to be frank and upfront about the strengths and weaknesses of their dogs and wouldn't try to cover up or downplay anything just to get a stud fee].

Hell, I don't even breed dogs. I simply commented on the frequency of one dog in particular being found in the first three generations of a significant number of the dogs on BW's example list, and questioned whether the 12 year old dog on there was still available for live cover [since the point being made was these dogs were within a reasonable commute].

I have no idea about Boy doing live covers or not, if your goal is to remove a dog from that list, go nuts, I can add like 10 more if you'd like as well that are in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Minnesota, which would be 6-7 hours from the Chicago area.

In regards to Vito...your statement assumes that the bitch also has Vito in her lines, and truthfully...not that many of those dogs have Vito in them so it's a moot point. You can make your statement about most "big name dogs" that we've had in our breed. No matter what do you're trying to avoid, you still have 5-10 dogs in that list that will probably do it for you.

I apologise hex it was not your post. It's barren fangs post

yep BW from one ipo field to another is a real challenge, takes one hell of a dog to overcome that, if they dont, maybe that says something about the value of the titles the dog scored on his home field and helper

Im not debating that there are real good dogs in IPO, but they are not good because they are trained well, but because of their genetic buildup IMO, also there is a difference in definition of  "good " for what purpose

if a dog is titled doesnot tell me one bit about his drives, nerves,environmental stability, hardness etc

you are looking at traininglabour period, which will NOT be passed on to offspring.

take Eros and Ellute, the one who scored the highest points of the two is definately not the one that produced real good and still is found close up in pedigrees of good dogs today

the fact they are titled and their owners are trustworthy doesnot make a dog breedingmaterial, and/or the best match to anyones female per se 

That is a good point, Duke.   Just because a dog performs well (in whatever performance venue) and their owner may be up front about what the dog is like (good and bad), may not mean that dog would be a good match to a breeder's female.    And to be a "serious" breeder, IMO, means to have a well-thought-out breeding program with suitable mates that will complement and compensate for the specific females.    A long-term goal and plan to achieve that goal, with the knowledge to select good quality breeding females, and suitable males with which to pair them, is what a "serious" breeder is to me.     The performance or evaluative qualifications for selecting breeding animals varies according to breed, location, etc.     

Edit to add:   I also think that a breeder should have very good knowledge of their breeding animals, and the genetic and phenotypic qualities of such, and what they produce.

Yup...and according to you dukey, none of the podium dogs are good genetically, it's all training. Since you hang out with so many of them you'd know better than most. I'm also sure that the tests you run on the majority of dogs you purchase and then resell in 2 weeks or less allow you to cover every situation that dog will ever see as well. Most of you "real dog" people will deny this, but I can with 99% certainty tell you exactly how a dog will react in different situations just from working the dog with a sleeve and on a field. It hurts your feelings and egos to know that there are people out there like me who can read a dog in that way and not need "confirmation" by doing random scenarios for my own shits and giggles because they look cool and make for cool videos to help you sell the dogs to people that know even less.

No one is saying just look at the title...the point that's being made is that you do need to see the dogs. Just take a look at my list...I created it because a local expert claimed there weren't any dogs around, clearly there are plenty of dogs around if one just goes and looks at them. I created my list from the last two years of regionals/nationals results, and I've even missed a few dogs but it took me about 10 minutes because I have seen the dogs, I've actually even had many of them on my arm (that sounds so stereotypical helper lol). I can say that I've personally seen every single one of those dogs not just on the field, but in training and have seen their strengths and weaknesses. No dark building and metal pipe necessary. Title and level of title proves that the dog is capable of something, and there isn't a need to tell tall tales about bloody fences, hoping fences, finding lost children, or "herding the kids back home."

Your Ellute/Eros comparison also doesn't work because Ellute scored plenty high and well in his own right, it might not have been as high as Eros, but it was extremely accomplished and still higher than anything anyone on this forum has done. According to this forum's standards, the dog would've still been called an IPO points dog in his day. The point is, Ellute still proved himself as capable and strong and no one went off of stories about a dog that sits in a back yard and hops the fence and barks at every car that comes up the driveway as if everyone in this world is out to murder it. Sorry...there's a difference in comparing a world champion to his brother who has also finished in the top 10 in world level competitions and comparing today's national/world level dogs to dogs that fail BHs and want to be considered "good."

you know what the problem is with you BW, you twist and turn every thing said your way to get your point across, mention everywhere how great you are, and how dumb other people are

at the same time a lot you write shows how little you really know about LE dogs and LE dog business

I test a lot of offspring of your famous topdogs and some are awesome on the sleeve, hurray, some of those great sleeve dogs fall apart when no sleeve and ball is in sight and just taken for a simple walk away from their field and owner, but he, bitework in drive is awesome

also for your info, every good dog for LE is outnumbered by demand 5 to 10 times, so people like me dont need to "try to sell " the good dogs, we can choose who we want to sell it to

when you talk prices you show you know nothing as well, and you might want to try some of my simple test on your top dogs, if they pass you wouldnot have trouble selling them and would get you more money.

 

might take some of your frustration away

regards  Dukey