STICK HITS IN PROTECTION - Page 3

alpha, that is the point of the whole discussion - dog got injured twice and his reaction was in response to the injury, not out of weakness. Reaction to injury is normal and healthy and life saving, and will not put a GSD, or SchH or GSD breeding to shame. Injury is injury, whether it happened with a chair or a padded stick. Maybe the point that you and K9only should take out of this is - if the dog showed clear signs of injury, which he did, then the tool was not used properly. If a ring/mondio etc dog gets hurt by improper use of a tool during a trial the owner would not consider that a laughing matter either, ie if the helper actually pulls out that chair... BTW, "you GSD breeders"? If you are not a GSD breeder or owner, then why are you here?

"then you wouldn't worry about a padded pliable stick ---" If it's too pliable and the hit is not placed correctly with excessive force, the stick can actually wrap under the dog and injure his groin area or the 'equipment' down there. I have seen it in slow motion videos. The DVG rules for helper equipment even specify the type of material that needs to be inside the stick and the recommended thickness of the rod, so that it is not too flexible. (Granted, I don't see many judges cutting open sticks to examine their hidden construction, LOL) So, before anyone laughs about a padded pliable stick, imagine how you would feel getting whipped down there if someone was having a bad day and didn't play according to the rules... I have heard that most dogs that come off the sleeve do so with the threatening motions right before the hits, not actually from the hits themselves - again, get enough helper training videos, you'll see lots of slow motion stuff on this topic. The dog should NOT be getting injured from the hits, and yes, I do believe it is possible to use enough force to injure a dog (or person) with those sticks, even with the padding. With enough force or in the wrong location (or worse yet, both), anything can be a weapon.

I"m wondering how your dog was injured? You say this was in a breed survey? and the dog was not being driven, just smaked with a stick? I've seen the person you say hurt your dog with stick ( a fact that I find hard to believe in the first place) but I'll believe it for now, and he works dogs fairly, is not inexperienced and isn't out there to show off. I've seen nothing but excellent work when working dogs. Things do happen that can injure a dog in a trial, lots of things, none of which have anything to do with the helper, its a contact sport. I'd really like to see the video evidence or something from a vet that states the padded stick caused such injury that the dog limped off the field from it.

Sandra, In response to your complaints about your dog being presented at my club's Breed Survey last June. You, your husband and the dog were at my house the day before the breed survey training with Steve House. You were not 100% sure of the routine and what was expected of the dog. Steve spent a lot of time with your husband (who was handling the dog) explaining the routine and working your dog. The day of the breed survey, I was on the edge of the field directing people where the judge wanted them to start and giving them the instructions (take the leash off etc.) So, I was on the field when your dog was presented. The dog took the first grip, and during the drive and stick hits the dog's foot was stepped on by the helper. This happens. Your dog reacted by letting go of the sleeve, and BEFORE

Cindy that is a Dam lie and you know it. You are into show dogs so what do you know about protection. If Steve stepped on his foot why did the judge tell Steve not to use the stick the second time when he let us re do the protection work, because the judge saw Steve hit him too! I saw it, and Tracy Betenhaus saw it, Tracy even yelled at Steve about hitting him that way. He was not even driving the dog when he hit him. Steve is a bad helper and we saw that the night we were at your house. He does not drive correctly, he does not lock up, he needs to go to Tracy's club and get Tracy to help him like Tracy asked him at the breed survey. If you do not know what you are talking about you do not need to say anything.. Sandra

Sandra, My entire post did not get onto the message board. I have rewritten it and it should be up soon. I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. I started in working dogs, own a working dog that I have titled to a SchH 3 3 times. I know more about protection work than you will ever know as you have a closed mind, are too emotional about the work, and haven't been around long enough to even know what you are talking about. If you did not care for Steve's helper work, you should have pulled your dog from the breed survey. Nobody forced you to show up on Saturday, that was YOUR choice. I have had dogs have a bad experience during an event, and I sure didn't yell and scream and post lies to the world complaining. I dealt with it and moved on. And, since you are being so nasty, I will add 1 final comment.... If your dog is such an excellent, expensive, hard biting, fearless dog, why did he cry when he got his foot stepped on?????? Does he have a problem with the stick hits? I heard from a very reputable source, that your dog was chased off the bite field in Germany before you purchased him. Was that a bad helper too? I think your dog probably has an issue and you don't want to see it or believe it. You, my dear, need to stay in your own little bubble and out of the rest of the world. I do not lie and make up stories. I leave that to people like you. Cindy Petersen

My dog is a BSP competitor, 4th in LGA, Sch 3 11x's He was trained by Karl Worth in Germany. Do some research on Karl and you will see when he trains a dog he knows what he is doing. My dog did not get all of his accomplishment because he could not take a stick hit. During the breed survey as soon as my dog bite the sleeve Steve wacked him so hard he came off of the bite, you could here the hit, my dog re-bit as soon as he bit Steve wacked him again, Steve was not driving the dog when he hit him. My dog held up his leg and the judge told us to walk off the field, now why is so hard to understand that a dog was injured by a helper because of a stick hit. It is not the training, the dog, the handler. It is the helper and the helpers need to be held responsible for injuring a dog. In the Sch USA book 3 dogs pulled because of injury and the same in the WDA book. It does not matter about how the stick is padded or if you use a chair, if the dog is injured by the helper, for some reason people want to say: its the training, its the dog, it's the stick. Well no it is the helper. I have done a lot of research on the stick hits and no where did I find that the stick hits will be hard enough to injure the dog. The stick is suppose to be used as a distraction with a wave over the dogs head with a light hit. Somebody tell me where I can go and find that a dog will be wacked with the stick by the helper and limp off the field. WDA is waiting on the video of the WDA nationals. So we wait and see what will happen, I will not let this go someone is going to give me some answers and the helper rules need to be changed, these dogs need to be protected from abuse.. Sandra I would like to thank those of you that sent me e-mails. It is nice to know that someone cares.

NO my dog was not chased off of the field in Germany and in fact you know nothing about my dog this is some BS you are making up because your little darling Steve made a mistake and can not stand up like a man and admit it. And I said nothing about my dog being excellent,expensive, fearless biter. But I will tell you what I will give Arolser Holz kennel and Karl Worth you contact information and you can ask them about My dog running off of the field in Germany, I'm sure they would like to know where you are getting your information. I have proof that Steve hit my dog in the wrong place and at the wrong time and you know what Cindy there are other people that do not like Steve Houses helper work either, they have sent me e-mails since this came about. And as far as you know more about protection work more then me that statement makes you look like a complete idiot and for you to post something like you did and you on the board of directors for WDA, that's not real professional, but I will inform WDA about your attitude Sandra....

Sandra, Here is my entire post: The dog took the initial bite, Steve started the drive, gave the stick hits, stepped on the dog during the stick hits and the dog let go of the sleeve. YOU at that point came screaming onto the field yelling at the helper. The dog did not re-engage the helper as he was confused. He wanted to bite the helper, but his owner was running at him screaming. Not a good thing. The judge was yelling at you to get off the field, but you continued running and yelling. This Sandra, DID NOT help your dog, nor the entire situation. You and your dog could have been dismissed at that point as you were NOT allowed to be on the field as you were not the handler of the dog. Once the judge got things under control and you, your husband (the handler of the dog) and the dog left the field he talked to Steve. Steve told him he stepped on the dog, the judge saw it too. Now, a 200lb plus helper, wearing cleats, stepping on a dog, does cause some pain. Most dogs would re-engage. The stick hits were NOT excessive. The judge did not think so. All the other male dogs in the breed survey received the same stick hits. Once you were off the field, you were still yelling and behaving in a nasty manner. The judge came to me as the show chairperson and said this is what he would do: Your husband (the handler) would be allowed to come back on the field with the dog, but you Sandra, would have to stay away from the field. I tried to talk to you but you were emotional and rude. So, I went to your husband and told him the judge would let the dog come back onto the field, but Sandra would have to stay away from the field. Your husband said he would like a second chance. THIS IS NOT NORMALLY ALLOWED!!!!! The judge was trying to evaluate the dog properly. He could not evaluate your dog properly when you were on the field screaming and yelling! This was not fair to the dog as you were disrupting the entire excercise. As for no sticks hits the second time the dog came on the field.....in the judge's opinion, the dog did not have a problem with the stick hits, he had a problem with being stepped on and you running at him on the field screaming. Since the dog now had a bit of a problem with the entire situation, the judge was trying very hard to be fair to the dog. Steve is a very good, fair helper. He is for the dogs. No one feels as badly about a dog being stepped on as the helper. The helpers get all the blame when the dog does not do a good routine. But when the dog does a good routine, it is a good dog, and the helper had nothing to do with it. As for me being a WDA Board Member at the time of this breed survey.....If you filed a complaint and weren't satisfied and you think I have that much clout with the WDA Board to stop a complaint against my club or myself or any helpers here, you are sadly mistaken. I would suggest that you stop the slander. I don't see you mentioning the names of other helpers that you didn't like or thought they didn't work your dog fairly. This sport is a contact sport. Dogs get injured, helpers get injured, handlers get injured. If you don't want to take your chances that everything will go perfectly on any given day, stay out of this sport. I do not often post on this board. I don't read this board very often, but, I received a few phone calls saying Steve's helper work was being bashed and my reputation was being slammed. I tell the truth, ask anyone who has been in this sport a long time. I am on the dogs side. I don't have time to deal with someone like you who yells and screams and is out of control. Many people come to our club events because of the good helper work. Accidents happen. I apologized to your husband for the accident, Steve apologized for stepping on the dog. Shit happens. Get over it and move on. Cindy Petersen

"During the breed survey as soon as my dog bite the sleeve Steve wacked him so hard he came off of the bite, you could here the hit, my dog re-bit as soon as he bit Steve wacked him again, Steve was not driving the dog when he hit him. My dog held up his leg and the judge told us to walk off the field, now why is so hard to understand that a dog was injured by a helper because of a stick hit." This is a quote from K9chess' last post and I'd like to address her comments. First, how do you know he came off the bite because Steve whacked him so hard? How do you know what is the acceptable amount of "hardness" with which to hit the dog? That's where some experience would help. How many breed surveys or schutzhund trials had you been to in person prior to this? You can almost ALWAYS hear it when the dogs take the stick hits...unless of course you're far away or its really windy or whatever. It was the absolute, general concensus (other than K9Chess' educated opinion) that the dog came off because his foot was stepped on. It really isn't logical that he would hold his foot in the air if he was injured by a stick hit...did Steve whack him in the leg??? Not. The reason the judge told you to leave the field was because YOU CAME RUNNING ONTO THE FIELD AS SOON AS YOU HEARD YOUR DOG YELP!! YOU ARE NOT THE DOG'S HANDLER!!! HE TOLD you TO LEAVE THE FIELD!!!!! Finally, it is believable that a dog could get injured by a stick hit. However, that's not what happened THAT DAY. And yes, I'm sure that there are people out there that don't like Steve or his helper work. But find me a good helper that's been around learning and working as long as Steve has, and I'll find you a dozen people who have something negative to say about them. One thing I know to be true, as my husband Dave has been a helper for as long as Steve has, the vast majority of handlers...especially new and unknowledgable handlers...want to blame the helper for everything that isn't right about their dog. My last comment, and I'll get out of this little world here...Sandra, you and your husband had a choice. If you were unhappy with the help you received on Friday, you didn't HAVE to come back on Saturday. By the way, what does your husband have to say about all this? I don't think anybody's heard from him... Kathy Blank