2 e-collars does not equal abuse........ - Page 6

nevermind.

Every tool used correctly an in a not abusive way is a good tool, Personally I use fursavers (same like a choker) but in training this is on the deadring or set to not choke, I use prong collars and occationally e-collar.
That is all depending on the dog - and sometimes on my physical capabilities.
All tools are great in their own way. It is not in the tool, it lays in the hands that use them.
I always resort back to horseback riding, the nit seems to be a torture instrument for a lot of people,too. And the snaffle is supposed to be soft in the horses mouth.
But both can inflict tremendous pain, but used with the right ensetivity, they can work wonders. A bit can make a sbaffleuser jealous, you have a way of very fine communicating that is not possible with a snaffle. And when the feel is there it is the utmost pleasure to feel the teamwork comming from this.

Getting to this point of harmony, requires intense training. Yeah, you might be able to force an animal to do certain things, but nice work you will find, when handler and dog work as a team, and i am not talking about perfection of an executed task, no I talk about a mutual understanding, and communication going back and forth between dog and handler.
This teamwork is most important, and this is what makes the true pretty picture. 

 If they are used to compensate some balls one doesn't have or ego that went missing or was never there, then I bet these tools should be locked up and banned. Then these things are no training tools anymore ,but torture instruments.

and back to the double e-collar thing. I know there can be points in a dogs life where the ecollar or the wanted agression diversion  is needed. but I just want to hope that people worked on the bond and teamwork first, before putting a dog in such a situation. I have been arround some strong dogs, often, the reason for not let of the sleeve is conflict. sometimes the double leash does the trick, and sometimes just one e collar.
I have to say i am not fond of the double ecollar practice. But I will not say either I would never do this.

But I certainly think it get's used way to often on dogs that really do not need it.

2 e-collars does not equal abuse........ by Christopher Smith on 23 February 2009 - 19:02

Christopher Smith Posts: 262 Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:26 pm

What did the asshole that wet the dog hope to achieve? It will not vary the stimulation in any way, shape form or fashion. That is a misconception. Don't believe me, call Tri Tronics. You change your contacts to match the dog's coat. If anything, not getting proper contact and wetting a dog to get the shock results in a lower stimulus. Electricity always takes the shortest path, and that would include traveling across wet hair, instead of making contact with the skin, resulting in no or low stimulation.   This guy was not necessarily an asshole. Back in the old days collars did not make contact as well as they do today. So we would wet the dog to make sure contact was made and the dog received the stim EVERY TIME. Trust me when I tell you that this was much better than the dog receiving intermittent stim. I’m getting old.

Chris,

I was using a play on Mystere's terminology. The ecollars I use were designed to be used in water, even the ones that I used twenty years ago. I was trying to hammer home the misconception that water does not intensify anything about an ecollar, and in some cases diminishes the desired result. There are very misinformed people that equate water to a higher amount of stimulus (shock) from a collar. It is complete bullshit from people that have no idea about electrical currents and how they work. One not designed to be used in water would simply short the circuit board and result in no stimulation. Wetting

Chris, Calvin and Sue, great posts btw.

Now I am really going to get flamed, but I want to know where you get the uses and techniques for using the ecollar on the flanks. I realize that it not going to be in a manual,lol, but who uses in this manner, actual methods and desired results. The general overall picture, not step by step basics. This is really something that I would be interested in researching and understanding after my busy season.

I am a very analytical person and absolutely love to learn, lol.

Take care,

Jerry

Oh no, now someone is going to blast me saying that I abuse the dogs that eat and get better care taken of them than I do! Oh well, I have a very thick skin, lol. Have at it.

Edited to add: How do you keep the dog from getting collar smart on the flanks also? I have no problems on the neck, but unless I was to attach it to a harness, I would not know any other way to keep the dog from realizing the additional baggage, and I know good and well a lot of dogs would chew them right off of them if left on the flanks with a regular collar. (Expensive mistake to make)

 Quote: "Yup wht did we do before the ecollar, hmmm maybe take more time in training?"  

Sharpened pinch collars, double sharpened pinch collars, helicoptering, rubber hoses with wooden rods, choke outs, 2x4's, nerve pinches, gut kicks, nose twisting, leather gloves with weight added. Should I list more ???? There is a nerve about a half inch above the dogs front leg, below the elbow, seen that done. Pellet gun.

Most of you if you had this dog would just quit training. I am not against that option either, and have done that myself, as I just don't feel like having to do that much to a dog just to get a title.

The e-collar gives the dog no one to fight against. It doesn't let up, and is an odd sensation to say the least. Sometimes the dog is fighting the handler as well as the decoy.

Hi Jerry:  Call me paranoid BUT:

I know a ton of people who use ecollars in the way I described but with the way the world is today, what with PETA and other Animal Rights Organizations being all the rage, and with so many half wits who have no clue about this subject but are foaming at the mouth  to jump on the bandwagon and accuse people of brutality and cruelty I am just not comfortable naming anyone.  If people want to put their own names out there, that's fine, but I don't think it's my call.  Hell, I won't even put any pictures or videos of my dog doing grip work on the net for fear of what possible repercussions it could have on my dog in the case of a lawsuit.

"Trainers know how to use the collar with finesse because they know from experience the negative effects of being heavy handed."

This is true, but for every trainer wisely using an e-collar on low to polish a performance, there are a lot of yahoos out there shocking the hell out of their dogs.  I've seen both - the fine-tuning simple reminders and the dog coming on the field shaking like a leaf because he knows damn well what's coming. 

I saw my first e-collar on the flank last Saturday.  And it wasn't pretty.  Bet in the coming months they'll flower like the tulips as everyone jumps on the bandwagon.  For god's sake, I've seen people use e-collars to make a dog retrieve faster, and the result was the dog had to totally be taken back to square one in obedience because this happy, WONDERFUL dog in the Obedience phase now slinks along in that craven attitude that is no longer a stranger to the club-level Schutzhund field.

Yes, any tool can be (and sadly, is) abusive.  IMHO it's VERY important that those who use them properly constantly stress the correct use and using the least amount of correction necessary.  But a lot of people like to zap.

I came to actively participate in Schutzhund late in my dog career, having only admired and read about it before, and a lot of these clapped-to-your-leg-gazing-upwards dogs are, to someone who knows dogs, terrified of making any possible move out of line.  Hearing, "well, I've seen worse things done" still doesn't make it right.

It does seem like there are people on here who get it and are responsible, but.....man, it does give one pause to see every single dog wearing an e-collar, and soon wearing MULTIPLE e-collars.

LOL, I don't care to have names, just the methods and desired results. They can pm, make up a ficticous email, username, use a library. I don't care. I think that this thread would be a great place to further expand the uses for it though. Anyone with half a brain-cell can tell the people that do not have a clue about what they are talking about. How else will you ever defeat ignorance, except for education. That holds true for anything.

Maybe I shouldn't have said, "who uses in this manner."

Jerry

Posted by Sueincc "Hell, I won't even put any pictures or videos of my dog doing grip work on the net for fear of what possible repercussions it could have on my dog in the case of a lawsuit."

AMEN.  I can just see it now; some terrible incident happens, my dog bites someone (probably warranted), they call a lawyer, who starts investigating, and they find Youtube videos of my dog doing bitework. No one will be knowledgeable enough to understand it had SHIT to do with what happened, and now it goes from my dog biting someone for the first time to a known dangerous (or "vicious") dog.............

It could happen.