Schutzhund and only schutzhund? - Page 10

eisenhaus wrote:
"until there is a sport that allows you to crack a dog in the head with a whiskey bottle when he comes at you and kick him in the ribs with a pasir of steel toe boots...... its still a sport. I guarantee you there are many ring3 dogs that will quickly lose drive in that scenario. Just a little food for thought. Kurt"

LMAO Kurt, great anology!
And yes, no one will get anywhere
by playing "my sport is better than yours".

And yes, it takes a very skilled and capable
handler to get a dog with loads of natural
aggression etc to a high level of competition.
Bastin is a perfect example. He was not a dog
for a novice by any stretch, and no joke either,
but he could maintain control and power to
make top points.

By the way, congrats to you on breeding
Alex, what a super nice dog!

Workingdogz....... hahaaaa. You like that did ya. I've was fortunate to have gotten into this sport by a mutual friend of ours tom trainor. I seen on another thread where you mentioned his name. I met him in the mid 90's when he was in florida. We both know what kind of dog he keeps. He actually pointed me in the dection of breeding to alex's dad troll v h milinda. And I thank pj for all his hard work and dedication. Yeah sport is sport no matter how you look at it. I liked ur comment of "Yeah it takes.a lot of expertise to put a less than 2yr old female under a male with no titles or health checks". Lmao. This place never ceases to amaze me. I like the ones where people who have never traine & titled a dog but yet are so knowledgable and quick to give their "expert advice". Or the ones who don't train & title who buy a schh1 female and pump out litters from her every year and "ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY" :) god I love this place. Lmao. Kurt

Kurt, I owe you a couple beer

Pedro and Alex made a fantastic
team together, what was more
impressive was the dogs temperment
off the field, around the home!

Tom did have some tough ones for sure!

I was sent this quote through a
working dog friend awhile back,
it comes off Scott Claybough's site,
and the words are very poignant.
I am betting you will agree Kurt!

I hope Scott won't mind me sharing this:
taken from his site at http://vomvastklippa.com

"I only breed Working Line German Shepherd dogs that are working-titled, healthy dogs with hip & elbow ratings. Dogs that have proven their genetic strength and ability to work under stress in training, on the trial field, or on the street. I do not just use the scorebook as a determining factor as to the dog’s worthiness to reproduce. I produce a litter only when we believe that the breeding will produce the dog’s inherited natural working drives, hardness, and temperament to compete in Sport as a K9 Partner, or as a lifelong guardian and member of your family.

Below you will find two quotes by Gunther Diegel, Director of Schutzhund Judges for the Verein für Deutsche Schaferhund (SV) in Germany.

The first quote is Mr. Diegel’s comments on working a genetically weak dog. The second quote is a reminder of what Schutzhund should be. I have added both of these quotes because of my complete agreement with both statements.

 When this dog finds himself under stress, as all dogs do at times, he reaches back to his ancestry to get help or relief from the stress. But, as you can see, when this dog reaches back for help from his ancestors...there is nobody there."

The reminder here is that the origin of Schutzhund and the rules under which we "compete" were developed to "test" the dog’s temperament (courage and hardness NOT "play prey" or "ball" drive) for breed suitability - not for a sport. We cannot lose sight of the fact that Schutzhund is a BREED SUITABILITY test or we do a disservice to the German Shepherd dog. Conscientious breeders should train and test their bloodlines...not simple be in the "puppy business".

johan77

I do know thats it all is about genetics not sport BUT  sport can help select the traits needed for work

the training methods has changed alot becuase people have learned to use positive ways to train dogs instead of the old hard methods we used back in the 80's and 90's becuase of the gsd has become more soft and easier to train it has lost something else like the power to maintain drive for longer time, overall drive, and the nervs to keep drive when corrected or not be rewarded all the time , many gsd today would not have the hardness og fight to keep drive becuase they are softer than in the older days

many people in France that train RING or those who train KNPV still train by those old methods and the dogs has to maintain drive to keep up the harsh training methods they still use

I like the way Koos thinks

he is good to spot the gentic dogs and not the ones that is made by a good handler his passion for the gsd and he has had very much succes

he is all about the genetics not points only

Myret.... I am going to be quite frank with you. I can tell by your posts you really aren't very experienced and for your sake I hope you do not get a dog such as max van tiekerhhok as you will only end up in the hospital. I doubt very highly you have the knowledge and skill to handle a dog like that. Its almost always the inexperinced person talking of hard tough dogs when in fact if they got one they will probably find themselves locked in a bathroom hopefully with a cell phone to the tune of "911 what's your emergency". Internet talk is cheap myret... and trust me when I say this. "Old school trainin" is alive and well on my field and if I can find dogs in schutzhund with the type of drive and hardness quite easily clear over here in the states if you know where to go makes me wonder how far away from your computer you went to actually go test and look at dogs? What kennels have you actually visited? Once again. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but it is what it is and I'm saying it like it is. Kurt

myret
Please keep in mind, the original thought
behind my post was that some of the
"pop up breeders" seem to think that
people at schutzhund clubs only ever do
schutzhund routines. There are plenty of
people out there all over the world
that don't ascribe to all the toys/gadgets
etc that were developed to help weaker dogs
get trained/titled. There is plenty of "old school"
training still going on all around, but the
noobies/pop-up breeders have to realize
that most clubs are not going to do that
in front of them. Some people don't understand
things like muzzle work, civil work etc. So while
it is still done in most clubs, it's just not
something that is advertised per se.

Vomeizenhaus I dont want a dog with much social aggression or alot of defense drive If you Think that I am much more fond of prey dogs that works and Think prey not a handler aggressive dog so I dont Think I Will ever own that type of dog I like the prey dogs more because they are easy to work with

Vomeisenhauz I Think you are missing the point I am not looking for a handler aggressive dog , a hard dog that Can handle corrections Does not need to be aggressive towards the handler, but still maintain drive so Im not looking for a Max Vom Tiekeehook dog I like the type of dog like Lübeck vom der mahlermeister hé is a Nice dog very High drive but not handler aggressive but still hard so hé Can keep drive even If corrected Yes I have seen or visited several kennels here did not like the dogs lack of drive most of Them I have seen more prey drive In a poodle

I want stabil nerves and the prey drive like a mal Not only Ball drive but prey drive