Can you give your own dog a arm sleeve bite Without a helper or decoy? - Page 3

I could present a sleeve to my dogs and they'd take it, sure, but I don't b/c it goes against how I personally view bitework and protection training.  I'd rather just play tug or fetch since my dogs would just view me + sleeve as playing around anyway.

Jim said:
"it is very easy to teach the dog to bark for an object, sleeve, toy, food then to transition to the decoy. "

Slamdunc/Jurdon 

I understand how to teach them to do a hold & bark on me with an object or reward, but I guess my question would be how do you transition that to the decoy, give them the reward object? 

Again I've never tried this so trying to to understand the transition process. 

My thinking is if the dog is doing a solid hold & bark on you (the handler) with lets say a ball. Then the next day you give that ball to the decoy & say "revere" or what ever word you use, wouldnt the dog turn to you & go into a h & b for his reward if the dog is solid? How do you get the dog to "transition" over to doing it on someone else? is it just repetition or ???

Remoine 1, You can teach the dog to bark for his reward and give the "revere" command. You can have the dog bark at anything, a ball you are holding, a toy laying on the ground or a decoy. Once the dog understands that strong barking and control gets his reward which can be a bite or his toy; the transition is easy. I do not do a hold and bark with my dog, he is trained to "find and bite.". He is a police dog and will engage a passive subject, like a decoy. However, before I transitioned him to be my K-9 I did SchH with him. He knows how to revere and I had to train that out of him. I do have several uses for a "revere" command. There are times when I want my dog to bark at a suspect or something I point at. When doing a search if my dog can not engage a suspect, for example the suspect is behind a closed door I want my dog to bark at that door. He basically does a hold and bark on the door. There are times I want the dog to bark on command at a doorway, person or woodline. He is told revere and will bark at what ever I point at. If it is a person I am having him "revere on" it is a much different bark than a doorway to a building. If you vary the objects the dog barks at, you with the toy, the toy hanging from a tree or on the ground you will have no problems focusing or targeting the dog on the decoy. Jim

 I do everything in terms of helpe work with my dogs first. I teach them whole routine, and all aspects I can think up in my brain first. I find this is benefical in certain things. First I do not trust a lot helpers. They seem to have a knack for not listening to my wishes. And I have a program that I have conjuered up in my small brain, I do not like deviation from the program. So the safest way for me to teach, is just for me to teach.

I am my dogs fight coach. A helper that is not me, Is there sparring partner in training. And in a trial the real opposition. Just like any new fighter, you do not have him spar or fight without going through me first.

Many people on here are correct that relationship between the helper should be something different that my relationship with the dog. I do not send my dog into a situation to learn something along with taking the stressed and pressures.

So, the things I do. I teach bite impriting with a rag. Once I am statisfied with this. I have two options I can teach a behavior or I can start to show the dog how pressure will look.

For pressure I show the stick and threats while the dog is gripping a bite pillow, or rag. (this is also part of my program, I do not use the sleeve). I do this by having the dog run at me with toy. when they are far away I show them threats, This way the dog can see the picture from comfortable distance. I am just showing them what it looks like. A lot of the time, I do not even engage the dog. I only engage if the dog willingly brings the toy to me. Over time, I decrease the distance. This way it's safe, I can always give the dog more room if need be. Once this is solid, I have dog run to me with the toy, show a threat from a far. then engage and show it again. These sessions are very short. I start showing them the drive, the long bite.

Teach the Bark and hold with a ball at first. I have found that teaching this on helper. I make sure there is no molesting of me or the ball before the helper is introduced. I just do not want to have that conflict between the helper and the dog. There is enough conflict going on simply by having the dog in that close of proximity of the helper. I want the operant behaviors trained first. The training helper for me is not a behavior teaching tool but a tool used to focus on the fight. I do not want the dog to have to try and be correct as well as fight.

And for training behaviors. I teach everything with a toy that keeps the dog fight threshold low while teaching. generally, my dogs fight threshold is lower for a ball. I had too many problems with secondary Obedience in bite work with my first dog. And I attribute that to using a helper with a sleeve to teach the secondary OB. I teach the dog the stay in a down, with walking around. I teach targeting with the pillow, and most important. I do not put my dog on helper without the out being as proofed as possible. Again, another conflict I do associated with the decoy.

Basically, and I have said it before. I want the dog to have OB as second nature so they can focus on fighting the nan.

I teach the dog the start of the back transport. By putting the dog in a sit, with me in front with the pillow, I step back and comback in and give a dog a bite for staying put.

The escape. I show them that.

Running blinds. I teach them to run one blind 6 times with me giving the bite in the middle of the field on the last one. Than I put 2 blinds out. have them run those as if there is six blinds. giving the bite on the last one with me in the middle of the field. then I make a triangle with three blinds. And I will work on directional control of the dog, by sending them around the blinds in a random order.

Once this is all said and done and the dog is reliable. I bring in a helper to stand behind me and go back to one blind 6 times. One blind is nice cause they cannot run the wrong the blind. Also, I think that dogs miss blinds sometimes cause people teach the blinds as a directional training first, When they need to know that is duration of time for running blinds.  Duration first, direction second, proof third. And for proofing, that helper behind me. Will start giving attraction. But I do not want the dog to go to him. I want the helper to be able to crack whip, scream his name...whatever and the dog run one blind six times prior to getting a bite. The only way to a bite is to listen to me....not the helper. Than I move to 2 blinds, then the triangle. I have an 11 months old pup that can literally run 20 blinds with the helper trying to get him to come get a bite before I say. And the dog is bomb proof.

There is more to it than just what I wrote but you get the idea. I want to have that impulse control down first before adding in the grand daddy of motivation the helper.

As for the relationship the dog has with me and the helper. It's still different. I do not think you can install fight in a dog. Nor will doing your bite work to teach stifle it. In fact I think it improves on the relationship. Any dog worth it's charcter will know there is difference between daddy teaching him and a helper fighting with him.

Look at this article. Answers what sch judge at highest level wants.....especially protection. http://www.dobermantalk.com/obedience-agility-working-sports/33258-interview-lance-collins-2009-wusv-protection-judge.html And this question would answer your own question. If you have created connection (you playing with sleeve) which is totally in prey with zero conflict, and by logic, you are training him to not only mechanically bite, but do it in a certain drive, here is what you are likely to create, which as described above is highly undesirable. Decoy drops the sleeve. Does your dog EVER deviate it's eyes off the helper? Will he engage when the sleeve moves (or when only when helper attacks with stick), does your dog ever look at the sleeve during bark and hold? If any answer is yes, well training with the sleeve as a toy reward cannot be doing the dog any favors. It is hard enough to make the dog with high prey and good nerves to take the stationary helper as serious. Teach it in foundation that sleeve is all prey and it will be a hard road, unless you have a high defense/low threshold of a dog. The other big issue is the quality of bark. There is a difference. The thing is, unless you see it, you cannot understand it, especially on the net. I know it is an invite only seminar. However, if anyone has the opportunity to come to the work week by Lance Collins (West coast German shepherd club) I will guarantee you will leave with a new perspective......that works.....at the highest level. It is geared towards serious competition sch trainers so I would ask your training director.

all that could happen on a helper with a dog never given a bite by it's handler...and I'm a Lance Collins fan!