Would you send your dog??? - Page 4

First things first. As is often the case with YouTube, the audio is delayed and not in time with the video. If you watch and pay attention, you will see this. I have seen this video before in straight time and can tell you the officers did not fire until the guy threw the wallet from his pocket. It was a wallet. I hope we can all agree to the fact that the wallet has no bearing. The suspect stated he had a gun, had his hand in his pocket, and said he was going to shoot if they sent the dog, so it was a gun.  As is always the case we do not have all information just a video clip.

I will try again to lend a law enforcement perspective......

GSDFan,

I also worked with juvies prior to becoming an officer, had alot of de-escalation training as well. I don't know what your policy is but mine was to go hands on when there is an immediate physical threat or damage to property. Additionally, one of the factors in attempting to use de-escalation techniques is if the subject would likely respond to them. I don't think this guy would have.

You operate in a controlled, locked facility. That is the main difference between your job and mine. In a locked facility most of the time you have more opportunity to utilize verbal de-escalation techniques and most of the time it does not involve a weapon. If it does, the weapon is not a gun.  On the street, you often find yourself in a position where you have little control over  the environment. This suspect was not secured in a vehicle, building, or by environmental terrain. There was nothing to prevent this guy from running and putting the officers or general public at greater risk.

Your question or point about the officers having cover....

There is a difference between cover and concealment. Concealment means you are behind something that prevents someone taking a clear shot at you. Cover means you are behind something that will STOP bullets. Very few things will actually stop bullets. Cars do not count because bullets go through the metal panels of a car. You can be behind the engine block or rear axel but there is still the open area above and below the vehicle. There is a shooting technique called "skipping". I am not going to go into the details of "skipping" becasue I am sure there are criminals that read this board too. Even if they did have "cover" that is not a viable reason to attempt verbal de-escalation and give the suspect the opportunity to shoot at them.

Con't

For once Echo is right about one thing. Police dogs are viewed as equipment. Of course the K9 handlers don't feel this way. Dogs are viewed as more than a flashlight, but in the end that is what they are; a tool for law enforcement to use to enhance the safety of officers, suspects, and the general public. The officer may have had a direct order to send the dog.

As for officers deploying dogs in traffic, etc. If a criminal runs from police, they are viewed as an immediate threat to the general public. If the scenario dictates the deployment of a K9 to stop someone from gaining access to a house or business and possibly taking hostages, you send the dog. Traffic, rivers, electrical wires, whatever. You send the dog to stop the guy before he hurts anyone. End of story.

I want to point our again, in this video the audio is delayed from the video. I have seen this before and the officers did not shoot until the guy took his hand out of his pocket and threw the wallet.

I know some don't veiw it this way but people the lives of dogs are not as important as the lives of human beings. Period. My answer to the question is yes I would have sent my dog.

This dog died a hero and performed his duties admirably, as did the officers.

I know I won't change people's minds but again want to give the law enforcment perspective.

I won't say too much about this sad accident except for the fact that the perp stated he would shoot and they still sent in the dog. He was armed and in clear view. Why not just shoot? Sending a k9 to a guy in clear view who says he has a gun doesn't seem like a well thought out tactical move. The officer had to be hurting bad over his partners demise.

JMHO

GARD, Thank you for a great post. 

senta are you a K9 officer?

It is probably a good thing that most of you who said you would not send your dog are not k9 handlers, or policy makers for a k9 unit.  The dog did what he was supposed to do.  End of story.  IT  is very tragic what happened, but better a dog than a human officer.

It is very easy for us to sit here and judge a video, if you were not there it is difficult to know what was going through the officers minds.  I have never been on the delivery end of a shooting, I have however trained for it.  Despite what people believe in law enforcement you can not just shoot someone for standing there with a gun.  He has to be doing something threatning.

If I were on the scene and a suspect said I have a gun and I am going to shoot the dog!  As soon as that person made an aggressive movement I would probably engage.  On the video that is exactly what it looks like happened.  I did not watch it with sound, but the bullets begin to impact within seconds of the wallet coming out and being thrown. 

Maybe that is why the officers opened fire.  If the dog was deployed and then the dynamics of the scenario change so should the actions of the officers.  If the dog was sent in and then a weapon is displayed in a threatning manner then you must up the use of force.  It may be harsh but that is life...that is the situation that officers place themselves in on a daily basis.

Maybe some of you should let your emotions calm down and then try to be objective.  I am sure had an officer just ran up and then he got shot by the suspect and the public found out there wer k9's there they would be up in arms about not using the k9's.

Thanks for you replies everyone.  GARD nice post.

This video is a few years old and the audio to video was delayed purposely by the "group" that released this video, it is not the video that was seen and heard in court.   The stand off had gone on for (if I remember correctly) about 60 to 70 minutes.  The "suspect" had told the officers that he was wanted by another PD a couple of hundred miles away for committing a murder the night before.

The dog would have taken care of the suspect and made the apprehension, he was a seasoned very experienced dog.  Their was obviously some problems with line communications and the given scenario was a mix of patrol officers and specialty personal and guns were discharged in properly.  Some policy changes did come out of this situation.

Thank you Eric for clearing up alot...

"The dog would have taken care of the suspect and made the apprehension"

I think we can all agree on that!  May he rest in peace.