What causes this working difference? - Page 14

Duke,
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said there are no low prey drive dogs that don't have confident defensive aggression. I said there is some consensus that there are more dogs with high prey and confident defensive aggression that have strong fighting instincts than dogs with low prey drive and confident defensive aggression. Prey is not play. Drives and traits always overlap.

jessie, i have seen and participated in testing hundreds of pups and saw their development up to 10 month of age. enough to obtain my own experience.
i can assure you - no single case when impression from first early testing was deceptive.
impact of following handling on development of dog is a different topic.

 

apple, few pages back i already told - dog, working the fight in prey has absolutely different mindset than dog, fighting to dominate.
sure, it's your call to choose a dog of your preferences. i worked with type of dogs being preferred for a real patrol dog role. it's was type, preferred by those, who used these dogs for everyday work and foremost was looking for assured reliability of these dogs for that kind of work.
i guess if i did grown by surrounded by sport or show dogs, perhaps today i could have preference to such kind of dogs.

JJ, maybe you think the same as me 2 post back, 

apple in the Koos hassing videos you are probably referring to, the dogs are showing POSSESIVENESS agression over food or toy, which is other situation than Valk video

https://www.schutzhundvillage.com/terms2.htmlJJ, You have probably seen this, but here is a good link about the components that make up what some call fight drive.

apple, yes drives overlap, but maybe read again, I wrote, prey without other drives etc is play

Duke-

Yes, I do think and agree that the so called fight drive is a compilation of components, as you mentioned.

 

Apple-

Thanks for that link. It is a good quick review of the drives and confirms, as Armin writes, fight drive is a compilation of several drives together:

„The major contributing components I have been able to isolate are the six I just described: prey drive, defense drive, frustration aggression, social aggression, dominance behavior, and rage. All dogs will have these components in some form or another. But we have to draw the line at the point where the components stop being useful. I hope you will agree with me when I say that a dog that everyone describes as having great fighting "drive" will display most if not all of these components in a useful form. I feel that it is important to look at this concept as a package made up of components, and not one drive. The individual components need to be promoted, solidified and manipulated to where a dog can freely switch between all the components he has in order to deal with virtually every situation he may encounter. Only then does a dog have fighting "drive."

Valk-
I did agree that that vid, as an evaluation, might be a good starting point...for someone that wants a dog like that.

And yes, it is a separate topic as to whether the dog will sustain this positively, in a controlled or in a sound manner only when truly threatened. Or, if it will drift into fear aggression, and/or aggress towards even a paper bag on the sidewalk...., or fizzle out completely....or turn into a nervous wreck with burned out nerves from too much, badly done, defense training....all of this is mostly all up to his handlers and, very importantly, the helper/decoy skills, in his future.




 

JJ, I think the elusive characteristics and definition changes to suit the individual and their experience.   As such, I will share my experience as it relates to having trained and handled police dogs.  This is either from watching my own four-legged partners engaging suspects or while I was the backup officer while other K-9 teams engaged or attempted to engage suspects.  I have watched videos of other teams on youtube, but I prefer to base it on my own observations of having not just worked with the dogs, but also from training many of the dogs.   Some of the dogs I helped trained choked on the real bite.  Many of these handlers came to me after having problems with their dogs not committing or fully committing to the bite.  They usually left with the same problem, just covered up until the next real encounter.  They were always warned in advanced.  NO help will make some of these dogs perform at a high level.   

My definition of fight is quite simple; the dog’s desire to confront and dominate a person through aggression.  This is a highly desirable trait in the police dog.  These dogs are not common, as it is much different than a dog’s desire to dominate a helper wearing a suit or sleeve.  So I should make it clear, a dog who displays certain characteristics on bite equipment will most likely NOT display the same behaviors on an actual person.  This includes a good number of police dogs as well.  The dog described as ‘having great fight drive’ as observed on the training field, will seldom perform this way as a police dog tasked with apprehending suspects or protecting his handler.  Wish it was that easy.  Unfortunately, many dogs come to this country tested for just that – the training field.   Good police dogs are hard to come by.   Ask Duke how many dogs he must test to find one suitable for working as a patrol dog in the U.S. 

Why is the desire to fight so important?  From my experience the dog with the desire to confront and dominate is the one you can count on anytime and any place.  The solid dog with that desire is born a police dog, not made one, so he is less likely to fail you when needed the most. 

I should include that physically apprehending a suspect is a very small part of what a police patrol dog is tasked with doing, but most often the more glamorous.  Nobody wants to talk tracking and other nose work, which to me is the best part.

Emoryg-
Good one.

You say „My definition of fight is quite simple; the dog’s desire to confront and dominate a person through aggression.“

Does this mean you believe it is a separate drive that some dogs posses, that we can then call ‚fight drive‘? Separate and standing alone, and not seen as a compilation of other drives...and is always available without exhaustion of the trigger/s? (Unlike apparently pure prey)

And, what is the dogs motivation that makes him want to confront and dominate man?

And, what does it look like in normal daily life? Do these dogs need defense training anyway? Or, said another way....does no amount of attack (from man) create an avoidance reaction in these dogs?

My intension is not to bombard with questions 🤯, some questions might not have quick answers as it always depends on the dog...but all food for thought, for me at least.

True about tracking and nose work. That is the real miracle work to my mind. And many dogs are good at it, too bad it is considered less glamorous.