Sportism - Page 16

Beetree - its got nowt to do with killing rabbits.

No offence - you are talking theoretical twaddle.

Forget your theoretical perception of drives.

Your dog will either engage or it wont - most wont.

R
Gee

Did you read where I said, I witnessed? Hello? What does that mean? Engagement. Thank you very much. Twaddle, dee-dee.

 

Apparently, not meaning to, I have now set a "default" .....that, too.

So in order for this to work as posted a female protecting her youngsters moves into defense and then right before she kills something for not backing away as instructed, switches to a prey drive for the kill shot, and that makes sense?

Gigante let me try to clarify.

Wild canines have prey and defense drives (for starters). Hunting a rabbit/deer etc. they use prey, a very confident and forward state of mind. Defending themselves/pack/den/pups from a bear they go into defense drive. A very stressful, insecure state of mind. Their/packs/pups lives are threatened (self/pack preservation).

When biting in prey they are trying to kill something. When biting in defense they are trying to scare something away so the show (growl/barking) before the bite is grand, the bite is shallow and brief (the main effort is to scare away) it is very rare a wild dog will kill in defense if the threat retreats. 

A wild dog is civil in both drives (duh...If anyone ever see a rabbit with a sleeve let me know).

Domesticated dogs have these same drives we manipulate, shape and blend for our purpose (training to bite a human). My reasoning behind even mentioning this is only due to the state of mind I personally desire when starting a pup/young/new dog.

A domesticated dog trained to bite should transition between drives depending on what kind of presence the decoy has, direction of movement, what kind of pressures the decoy puts on the dog, environmental stressors. So even if they chase the decoy around the corner in a prey state of mind, then the decoy turns and charges and puts the dog in defense...he will transition between drives and still perform accordingly and always bite. 

I could say alot more but I will keep it simple for clarification puposes.

Whoever trains a dog regularly in true defence drive where the dog really thinks it is or could die, by definition, is a moron who should be arrested.

They certainly shouldn't be allowed to own dogs. But nope they brag about it all over the internet trying to impress clueless newbs.

beetree, that is an explanation of drives written to fit ones promotion for sales, we see that happen more here 

 

in fact reality is a bit different, as prey/hunt will catch the animal, but not kill it

in todays sport we see the same, many what I would call unbalanced dogs (too much prey, too little of anything else)  will show a full calm grip, but put no real pressure to the grip

where the balanced dogs with good (civil) agression, will dig in deep in the sleeve or suit

the keyword allways is balanced, and not prey only or civil agression only 

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I think 90% of the finished product is how the dog is trained and how it’s worked during the foundation stage. The dogs that bite “full but soft” are probably worked mostly in obedience and because the handlers are afraid to lose control of their dog and focus so much on the obedience the dog is never allowed to be itself and truly believe that it needs to bite the helper hard. Very few people out there are able to balance the obedience and protection properly at a young age…generally you end up with either a dog that is unsure in the protection phase but is extremely obedient and has good secondary, or you end up with an out of control dog in protection that has no secondary obedience because it was allowed to be crazy for too long.

Dogs that target the sleeve? I prefer that when talking about sport for safety and also for the fact that the sleeve is the target in an IPO trial. I’m not training a PPD or a K9 when I’m training someone’s pet to do IPO bitework. Dogs that target the body? Dangerous to the dog, dangerous to the helper…especially when you consider 95% of the people doing sport are doing it at a club level with either very young (inexperienced) trial helpers or very old (slowing down) helpers who shouldn’t be catching strong and powerful dogs. But again, most don’t have dogs fast or strong enough to do much damage to themselves so it might not matter too much.

It is funny though when “suit people” want to make claims that their dogs don’t target equipment or aren’t “set off” by equipment. As if the huge suit doesn’t look different than regular street clothing… You teach the dog to target a different area of the body…not the forearm but the shoulder/biceps/triceps. Other sports it’s the legs. Dog will “default” to that bite 99% of the time when its available or presented. Most “sports” will present a part of the body…most training for real work…the helper will present a part of the body for the dog to target and bite. Whether it be sticking an arm or a leg out or leaning with the right or left side…the dog is still guided towards an area of the body. If you don’t think that’s teaching the dog to target…you’re confused. Unless the dog is going in and taking a bite right in the middle of the chest each and every time, it’s probably not totally targeting the body. Just like the IPO dogs I train to target a sleeve…it’s not like they’re 3 feet off the body…they’re 6 inches one way or another to give the helper some idea of where to take a dog coming downfield at 30 mph.

Having seen a LOT of rabbit hunts, resulting in the rabbit being
dinner, I'm still creased up at GSDFan's image^^^ of a rabbit
wearing a padded sleeve !

GSD made a lot of very good points. Maybe people should start to listen to people who actually train, not to people who just own some dogs...

VK, although you are living at the end of the world, you do have a very good feeling for dogs - to keep a dog in defense is not healthy for any dog, it´s too much stress for any living being.

"Sportism" - sorry, but a good dog is able to switch between prey and defense ( while prey should be the dog´s comfort zone defense should kick in when needed ). A "transition" is no real problem, but during training you need a good helper, and you need to be a good handler; first and foremost you need to be able to "read" your dog. A lot of people are not able to interpret the behavior of their own dog accordingly...

To be successful a trainer/owner must develop prey, defense, aggression, and fighting drive, the whole package, everything else means using shortcuts, not helpful, but dangerous for you and your dog.

No videos from me, sorry, my dogs have always been my private pleisure ( nothing to sell, be it dogs or training of dogs ), but all of them have been able to pass the IPO trials, and all of them have been very good PPs, too...

In case you want to see good videos, take a second and third look at GSDs videos - very good helper work, very good support from the handler, very good dogs ( used in real life ).